Tampa Repticon SCORE!!

chamcapture

New Member
thank you, Lee. Extremely happy to have Cyclone on his way back to us (he's en route, somewhere between PA and CA right now). I will send you a PM (maybe on Fauna if your inbox here is full) so we don't derail Geoff's post too much.

Great pick-up Geoff!
Thanks Josh. I am extremely happy you posted pics of Cyclone as a youth!! This male I have, has that same grey/blue look to him right now at rest!! When he sees my females he turns pure white with bright red bars!! Of course, he has layers of shed that need to come off and then I am sure I will get a better idea of his true colors.
 

chamcapture

New Member
Nice pick up... you saved him from that vendor. :)
Funny you should say that. The last 20 minutes of my standing and waiting to get him all I was thinking in my head was "at least I'm saving him from this *******"!! Thanks for the comment. I am super happy to have him!! I've already had a few forum members pm me offering to buy him...I think he's a KEEPER!! He is showing more of his grey/blues today.:D
 

Attachments

Last edited:

Chameleon Company

Avid Member
In my opinion its one thing to classify with a reasonable expectation of that identification being accurate what is ultimately an unidentified import as a commonly imported locale when all of its characteristics fall within the variation typical of that locale. I believe its another to classify an unidentified import as an extremely rarely imported (or collected) locale that has a wide range of similarities to that common locale, and do so with the same expectation of accuracy. As a general comment, it seems more and more though that too many people are so desperate to find something unique and rare that they're willing to see things where they don't exist or interpret things out of something that no one reasonably should.

The Ambanja locale is extremely variable and exhibits many similarities to the Ambato locale. While some animals collected from Ambato have surely been imported as Ambanja, given the higher price animals from Ambato can be sold for and the increased difficulty in collecting from that locale, these are more than likely few and far between. While some of these imported individuals scream Ambato in their characteristics, it really should be a dead ringer for anyone to claim them as an Ambato.

Looking at this individual, I think he will clean up nicely after a couple sheds, but to me he shows too many characteristics of an older Ambanja import than of a true Ambato, at least for me to be comfortable calling him an Ambato if he was in my collection or if I was purchasing offspring as Ambato. I don't mean any offense by that, but having actually been to Ambato personally and having seen many genuine Ambato & Blue Diamond imports, thats my opinion.

I'll be interested to see additional photos of him as he cleans up.

Chris
I'm going to piggy-back a bit on what Chris has said. But more with all this tooting of one's own horn.

First off, I think it likely that the male you purchased is an Ambato. Looks like ones that I have dealt with in years past. But I am going to take issue with "super-rare", or whatever was said. The only thing rare about Ambato's, which essentially are a sub-local of Ambanja, is that they are not often imported. They can surely be had, but the demand for them is quickly sated. Not at all unlike Tamatave and Nosy Boraha. Easy to get for an importer, but not worth the effort in any quantity, because they just do not hold demand in the market-place. Folks have tried to stoke Ambato demand in the past, but the truth is that demand for them pales to such as Ambilobes (and others), once they can be had. In my view, the Ambanja sub-Locale that wll command long-term demand is the Ankify.

That is precisely why I and others won't import Ambato's. Their staying power in the marketplace is limited. That does not make them rare.

I hope he does well for you, and that you are able to obtain some females. There are niches for every Locale. Some just smaller than others.
 

chamcapture

New Member
I'm going to piggy-back a bit on what Chris has said. But more with all this tooting of one's own horn.

First off, I think it likely that the male you purchased is an Ambato. Looks like ones that I have dealt with in years past. But I am going to take issue with "super-rare", or whatever was said. The only thing rare about Ambato's, which essentially are a sub-local of Ambanja, is that they are not often imported. They can surely be had, but the demand for them is quickly sated. Not at all unlike Tamatave and Nosy Boraha. Easy to get for an importer, but not worth the effort in any quantity, because they just do not hold demand in the market-place. Folks have tried to stoke Ambato demand in the past, but the truth is that demand for them pales to such as Ambilobes (and others), once they can be had. In my view, the Ambanja sub-Locale that wll command long-term demand is the Ankify.

That is precisely why I and others won't import Ambato's. Their staying power in the marketplace is limited. That does not make them rare.

I hope he does well for you, and that you are able to obtain some females. There are niches for every Locale. Some just smaller than others.
Hey Jim, glad to see you chime in on my thread!! I am also glad to see that you feel he is an Ambato as well. I am 99.9% positive he is too. I guess "SUPER RARE" was perhaps overstated. However, "not often imported" does essentially mean "rare" to me. As far as demand goes, I can't disagree with you. However, there are a few select collectors that do want them and will pay good money for them. I personally, have not seen ANY for sale in quite some time. This specific specimen is coming along well and getting females does seem to be an issue at the moment. Thank you for your input, it helps to assure me that he is what he is!!:D
 

djfishygillz

Established Member
I'm going to piggy-back a bit on what Chris has said. But more with all this tooting of one's own horn.

First off, I think it likely that the male you purchased is an Ambato. Looks like ones that I have dealt with in years past. But I am going to take issue with "super-rare", or whatever was said. The only thing rare about Ambato's, which essentially are a sub-local of Ambanja, is that they are not often imported. They can surely be had, but the demand for them is quickly sated. Not at all unlike Tamatave and Nosy Boraha. Easy to get for an importer, but not worth the effort in any quantity, because they just do not hold demand in the market-place. Folks have tried to stoke Ambato demand in the past, but the truth is that demand for them pales to such as Ambilobes (and others), once they can be had. In my view, the Ambanja sub-Locale that wll command long-term demand is the Ankify.

That is precisely why I and others won't import Ambato's. Their staying power in the marketplace is limited. That does not make them rare.

I hope he does well for you, and that you are able to obtain some females. There are niches for every Locale. Some just smaller than others.
I have had a bit of interest in my tamatave lines :)
 

djfishygillz

Established Member
Hey Jim, glad to see you chime in on my thread!! I am also glad to see that you feel he is an Ambato as well. I am 99.9% positive he is too. I guess "SUPER RARE" was perhaps overstated. However, "not often imported" does essentially mean "rare" to me. As far as demand goes, I can't disagree with you. However, there are a few select collectors that do want them and will pay good money for them. I personally, have not seen ANY for sale in quite some time. This specific specimen is coming along well and getting females does seem to be an issue at the moment. Thank you for your input, it helps to assure me that he is what he is!!:D
Chamcapture, whenever someone has a rare gem someone will always want to discredit it... You have plenty of exp. with ambanjas so I think you well know the difference of the sub-locale. Congrats on the RARE find :) even if others don't think it is rare or the ambato locale all together.
 

chamcapture

New Member
Chamcapture, whenever someone has a rare gem someone will always want to discredit it... You have plenty of exp. with ambanjas so I think you well know the difference of the sub-locale. Congrats on the RARE find :) even if others don't think it is rare or the ambato locale all together.
Thanks Nick, you're right about that!! If and when I can find a suitable female I will sell the offspring as "Ambato" because I am confident with my experience, regardless of what people may think!!:)
 

Texas Panther Man

New Member
Beautiful chameleon and he looks to be an Ambato. Of course with imports there are going to individuals that will always disagree in regard to locales. Just part of the panther game... I will say that if I personally disagree with someones evaluation of their cham I will send them a pm and talk to them privately as opposed to doing it on an open forum post. I think that shows more respect to the owner and reduces the drama on the forum. Good luck cleaning him up and I hope he continues to show traits of your desired locale.
 

chamcapture

New Member
Looks like he will turn into a gem in a shed or two:)
Thanks, my thoughts exactly!!

Beautiful chameleon and he looks to be an Ambato. Of course with imports there are going to individuals that will always disagree in regard to locales. Just part of the panther game... I will say that if I personally disagree with someones evaluation of their cham I will send them a pm and talk to them privately as opposed to doing it on an open forum post. I think that shows more respect to the owner and reduces the drama on the forum. Good luck cleaning him up and I hope he continues to show traits of your desired locale.
Thanks for the supportive comment. I agree with you that a pm would have been a bit more tasteful. However, I do value Chris's opinion given his education and background. I just think that this time his evaluation was incorrect.
 

Chris Anderson

Dr. House of Chameleons
Staff member
Beautiful chameleon and he looks to be an Ambato. Of course with imports there are going to individuals that will always disagree in regard to locales. Just part of the panther game... I will say that if I personally disagree with someones evaluation of their cham I will send them a pm and talk to them privately as opposed to doing it on an open forum post. I think that shows more respect to the owner and reduces the drama on the forum. Good luck cleaning him up and I hope he continues to show traits of your desired locale.
Thanks for the supportive comment. I agree with you that a pm would have been a bit more tasteful. However, I do value Chris's opinion given his education and background. I just think that this time his evaluation was incorrect.
Thats fine. I still stand by my comments, and making them publicly. There was nothing rude or hostile about my post, it was based on experience with this locale that few others here have (having actually been there), and I was very careful to point out that my comments were not intended to offend anyone, but rather give my opinion based on that experience (in other words, to help improve the quality of information shared with the community as a whole). My comments were also intentionally meant to encourage people in general to be more conservative about assigning locale identification of less commonly imported locales, which I think more people should push. Given that goal, giving my opinion publicly was appropriate.

Discussion on locale identification can become heated, which is when they become inappropriate. If it can occur in a mature and civilized manner, however, such discussion absolutely should be done publicly, as the entire community benefits. You'll notice that I have not turned this thread into a debate, started telling anyone else that their experience doesn't count, or been hostile, despite maintaining my original position. I've stated my opinion and why, and anyone is welcome to disagree with my opinion on the locale identification of this animal, however no one can claim it wasn't reasonable for me to give.

I'm glad to see he is continuing to improve since you got him. He has a lot of promise to be a very nice looking animal.

Chris
 

chamcapture

New Member
Thats fine. I still stand by my comments, and making them publicly. There was nothing rude or hostile about my post, it was based on experience with this locale that few others here have (having actually been there) I've stated my opinion and why.
Chris
Chris, I take no offense to anything you have said. However, I would like to know what "characteristics" you see in this particular specimen that leads you to believe that he is not indeed an Ambato?
 

Motherlode Chameleon

Chameleon Enthusiast
Regardless of the debate (although I think it would be more optimal to ID this local after he has acclimated) I look forward to pictures of him when he is done acclimating. Although I'm crossing my fingers he is an Ambato as I am for more Ambato's breeders in North America.
 

jpm995

Member
beautiful cham, although i would tend to agree with Cris on his view, sounds like he has a good home and will be enjoyed by a dedicated owner.
 

Chameleon Company

Avid Member
Hey Jim, glad to see you chime in on my thread!! I am also glad to see that you feel he is an Ambato as well. I am 99.9% positive he is too. I guess "SUPER RARE" was perhaps overstated. However, "not often imported" does essentially mean "rare" to me. As far as demand goes, I can't disagree with you. However, there are a few select collectors that do want them and will pay good money for them. I personally, have not seen ANY for sale in quite some time. This specific specimen is coming along well and getting females does seem to be an issue at the moment. Thank you for your input, it helps to assure me that he is what he is!!:D
LOL .......... I am with you on the 99.9%. I am certain that had you sent me a pic of it, saying "This was imported. What is it ? " that I would have said "Ambato". Kudos to you for knowing that when you saw it, and I hope you got a good deal and that the critter lives at least a few more years ! My post was just to clarify "rare". More on that below.

I have had a bit of interest in my tamatave lines :)
Yes. I am sure that you have ..... :) I just wanted to explain my take on what was "rare", verses what was no longer commonly imported, as they are very different things. Tamataves used to be the most commonly imported Locale 10-12 years ago. They are in an easy-to-collect region relative to the Capital, Antananarivo, in or near which most exporters live. Export dynamics, the awarding of quotas, etc., effects whether the importer (such as me) tells the exporter what I will buy, or the exporter tells me what he will sell. That is the biggest difference in the last 12 years or so. Back then, as the entire system there was corrupt as heck, we took what they would sell. That changed with a new government in about 2002, although they were tossed a few years ago, and it is going back to corrupt again.

There is a niche for such as Tamataves. Speaking of my own experience, I import primarily to bolster my existing bloodlines, and not to flip the critters. I stick with four Locales that give me the highest demand. Were I to add such as Tamatave, I already know what would happen. Once I filled the reduced demand for such, I'd have hundreds that I'd be selling for $75 ea. Been there, done that about 8 years ago when I finally cut out Tamataves. However, as they are no longer imported in quantity, precisely because quotas are being filled with those Locales with more staying power, then there is a boutique demand for such as Tamatave and Nosy Boraha. And others.

Wish you folks all the best !

One of my favorite Tamatave photos. Eating an adult wolf spider.:
 
Last edited:

Chris Anderson

Dr. House of Chameleons
Staff member
Chris, I take no offense to anything you have said. However, I would like to know what "characteristics" you see in this particular specimen that leads you to believe that he is not indeed an Ambato?
Unfortunately it is very difficult to specifically characterize a locale in a way that effectively differentiates it from another. The reality is that no characteristic is going to be perfect and you’re always going to have examples that do not fit for one character or another, despite the purity of an animal. In general it's a certain look that you get used to picking up on with time. So with that said, I don’t know that I can effectively characterize what I would expect an Ambato to look like in a way that will explicitly disqualify animals that I can otherwise look at and say without a doubt that they aren’t Ambato, but I'll at least try to give you an idea of some of the things I think of as typical for this locale.

First, here are two photos I took of F. pardalis on the Ambato peninsula:




To me, an Ambato will have a light blue coloration (almost white in areas) with dark/purplish –red (or sometimes dark blue) bars and a broken white longitudinal stripe. These bars often fade dorsally (i.e., https://www.chameleonforums.com/who-has-blue-turquoise-ambato-panther-12468/index3.html#post100525). The eye turrets will have dark radiating bars, but will not be overly red (i.e., http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8746260042) and will generally have a yellow infused background color. Yellow will also typically be exhibited in the temporal region and on the posterior ends of the lips. When fired up, the light blue body becomes light, almost white. The light blue portion of the body will not have red speckling (i.e., http://image.shutterstock.com/displ...s-in-front-of-a-white-background-13508377.jpg). Further, the dark red bars will not have dark blue speckling (i.e., http://static9.depositphotos.com/15...-Chameleon-Nosy-Be-skin-Furcifer-pardalis.jpg), nor will dark blue bars (when present) have red speckling (i.e., http://flchams.com/inventory/BrantleyWeb.jpg). Dark red/blue bars can be infused with the light blue, however (i.e., http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/7008/bluediamond3ci8.jpg or http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_eyYuo_Xv2...Vambm5kkncs/s1600/ambanja_blue_diamond020.jpg).

Looking at your animal, the white you are talking about seems like faded blue in an old animal (not that Ambato’s don’t get old too, I'm just pointing out that the "white-ness" may not be what it seems). There also seems to be quite a bit of red infusing the pale blue/white areas, particularly at the posterior half and on the head where it is not included in discrete barring.

As I said, none of these are perfect, and a lot of it boils down to just having seen a lot of them over the years and having a feel for it.

Chris
 
Top Bottom