Sweet Panther Developed Aiming Problem - Please help!

[Katy52]

Hello Cham owners!

I hope everyone has had a nice weekend.

My much loved male panther has started missing his food over the past couple of months.

Problem:

His tongue seems to extend and retract properly in a muscular sense, it just misses the bug by about 1-2cm. He climbs closer to the bugs to compensate but he still misses unless he is approx 10cm or closer to the bug.

Nothing in his environment has changed. I know aim can sometimes be a diet issue, he has always had the Repashy supplement regime which I thought was meant to be good quality? Happy to change if there is a better one.

I have filled in the husbandry form below and attached photos.

If anyone has time to help I would REALLY appreciate it, he had a sad start in life with every reason to hate humans, however he is the sweetest character! @MissSkittles @Beman @kinyonga

Katy


Husbandry Form

Your Chameleon - Male, panther chameleon, approx 2 years. Deformities since baby: missing last third of his tail, deformed tail bone & multiple bite scars. I rescued him as a juvenile from a horrible breeder who was going to put him in the bin!

Appearance and behaviour seem fine, no changes.

Handling - Only when he wants interaction, never forced. He is very friendly, most days he will voluntarily come out of his enclosure and climb onto me. He then explores my hanging house plants. I limit the time out of enclosure to ensure he gets enough time under enclosure lights.

Feeding -: Staple: dubias, silkworms (silkworms have been out of stock past 4 weeks) Secondary: BSFL, waxworms, morioworms

Feeding 3 x per week in a cup either held by me or attached inside his enclosure

Gut loading - Silkworms: mulberry leaf paste. Dubia: mostly carrots & sweet potatoes, also green beans, kale, oranges.

Supplements - Daily: Repashy SuperCal no d3, 1st & 3rd Sundays of month: Repashy Calcium plus LoD

Watering - Mistking system, 2 mistking nozzles, each one placed in top front corner

8:20am = 2min​

1pm = 1min (to keep daytime humidity above 50%)​

8:15pm = 3min​

1am = 2min​

5am = 2min​

Fecal Description - creamy white urate, sometimes orange area, along with semi-solid brown poop.

Cage Type - customised reptibreeze XL, 61x61x126, acrylic panels on back & sides & top door, mesh lower door & mesh ceiling for chimney effect. No substrate, water drains through holes drilled into the base.

Plants - 2x ferns, 1x maranta, 1 x pathos, 2 bromeliads, a few air plants. 3 key pots have been covered with reptile bark to disguise the plant pot.

Lighting -

• UVB: Arcadia ProT5 22" with Arcadia Forest 6% bulb.

I don't have a UVB meter so I replace the bulb every 12 months religiously. UVB is raised on top of enclose to create 8.5 inches between UVB and the basking branch itself (so Cham's feet).

• Basking: 100 watt ExoTerra basking bulb

Controlled with Habitstat thermostat, probe fixed to basking branch with zip ties. Also have an Exoterra digital thermometer attached to thermostat probe to supervise accuracy.

• Plant grow light - generic one

Light Schedule - UVB & basking operate 8am - 8pm, plant light 9am-5pm

Temperatures -
30C / 86F basking temp controlled via thermostat
20-22C/ 68-72F ambient measured at lower end of cage

Humidity -
Measured with a Govee digital hydrometer & phone app, attached to enclosure back wall

Daytime: average 69% (Lowest 55% Highest 82%)
Nightime: average 76% (Lowest 68% Highest 87%)

Placement - low traffic room 1.2 metre off the floor

Photos:

• Enclosure
• Basking branch with lamp & probe
• Thermostat set up
• Repashy food supplements

 

[Katy52]

And here's some photos of him taken today, both sides and casque - sorry he is hanging upside down, he's a rascal when the phone is around!

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi. Nothing in your husbandry is really standing out to me except what you are feeding your bugs. Yellow and orange veggies are high in (proformed) vitamin A. This is the type of A which is water soluble and easily excreted and is the one which we are unsure if chameleons are able to utilize it partially or fully. The Repashy LoD contains preformed vitamin A, which is fat soluble, so not so quickly excreted, and has the potential to build up to toxic levels. As we know, vitamin A is good for eye health.
When your feeder insects eat foods high in proformed vitamin A, it is passed on to your handsome guy. My knowledge is lacking in what happens to the A inside of the insects - as it builds on their own vitamin A levels, does it then become preformed? Maybe @kinyonga has the answer to this.
I can only offer you assumptions. Let’s assume chameleons are able to utilize even a small amount of proformed vitamin A, which is quickly excreted. But then we give them preformed A, which stays in their system for a little while. Let’s then assume that the insect feeders can convert the proformed into preformed, then we are looking at it building up in your chameleon. All of this can potentially lead to your guy getting too much A.
I hope I’m making sense…my brain is not yet awake.
I would say to reduce the amount of yellow and orange veg which you are feeding your insects and give more greens. Do note that some greens are high in oxalates, which can bind to calcium (which we don’t want to happen). Kale and spinach are the two to avoid. Good greens are turnip, mustard, dandelion, watercress, arugula, etc. I feed my bugs a good amount of summer/yellow squash or zucchini which they seem to enjoy. I would also try to reduce orange to a minimum. My reasoning is that it is toxic to bearded dragons and I then wonder about its effects on other reptiles. Attaching the ‘gutloading’ graphic to help guide you.
Lastly, even though your guy is only about two, considering his rough start, his body may not be at that level of expected health. I’ve noticed that with my older animals, one of the first changes I see is poor vision. Again, this is based upon assumption and my personal experiences with a leopard gecko.
@Beman is the master of finding things which I miss and @kinyonga has a wealth of experience and knowledge, so perhaps they will have a different/better answer for you. Btw, your guy is gorgeous! I love his colors!

 

[MissSkittles]

Of course I forgot the graphic.

 

[kinyonga]

Regarding your supplements…I have never used the repashy. I’m old school…started keeping chameleons and other lizards, turtles, etc before those products existed…so I just kept on with what I knew worked. Lots of people on here use them though and can give you information.

Regarding vitamin A…there are two types of vitamin A…prOformed and prEformed. PrOformed comes from carotenoids and thus from vegetable sources. It’s converted to useable vitamin A by the body as needed and thus cannot cause an overdose. However, there is controversy about how well chameleons can convert it or if they can even convert it at all….so we give a controlled amount of prEformed vitamin A, which is fat soluble and ready to go…it comes from animal sources…no need to convert it. Because it’s ready to go, we have to be careful not to overdo it.

For prOformed look for words like beta carotene on the labels. For prEformed look for retinol, retinol, etc.

Now, there’s one more thing that plays into the vitamin A story…vitamin A and vitamin D3 are antagonistic to each other somewhat…so they need to be in balance too.

D3 from sunlight, UVB lights, etc is converted as needed so you don’t have to worry about them getting too much as long as they can move in and out of the light at will.

D3 from vitamin powders, etc. is ready to go and can be overdone…so once again, we limit it and allow the chameleon to get the rest from the light.

I’m not a vet and can only speak from over 30 years of keeping reptiles and lots of chameleons and from what I’ve read or learned from others along the way…but I think when the tongue is missing hitting the target…so has a ”curving” trajectory…it could be a weakness of the muscles caused by some nutritional issue. However…I can’t tell you exactly what that would be, because I’m not a vet or a great scientist…and I can’t be sure what’s causing it. It’s likely to do with the vitamin D3 and vitamin A and calcium though…I think..but other things might be playing a part too.
Selenium and vitamin E have been thought to play a part in it too.

Sorry I can’t tell you how much of what would correct it…but a good chameleon vet might know.