supplement dispute

[JJC]

There was a thread started earlier today and there has been a bit of a friendly dispute between me and another member of this forum. Since we are both "new" I was hoping an expert could step in with personal experience/advice to offer the both of us. The issue is supplementing baby veiled chameleons. What schedule is best:

multi-vit once a month
calcium w/D3 2 times a month
plain calcium the rest of the time

or

Juviniles Calcium without D3 twice a week
Multivitamin twice a week

 

[jannb]

D3 twice a week is too much.

With a young cham:
calcium without D3 just about every day
Calcium with D3 twice a month
and multi vit. once or twice a month

 

[sarah777]

I was wondering how many feeders to dust? I was only dusting 1-2 crickets with a light dusting and then heard on hear that I should be dusting all of them. What is everyone else doing?

 

[jannb]

I lightly dust 6 to 8 feeders so for an adult that would be all of them.

 

[laurie]

I follow the same supplement schedule as Jann does the only thing I do different is I very lightly dust all the crickets, not just a few of the feeders for that day.

You will find even keepers who have been doing this for a while differ a bit on what we do & how we do it.

 

[sarah777]

OK, thank you. I guess my guys need a little more

 

[Dave Weldon]

Howdy Julia,

The amount of D3 between suppliers can be as much as 100x.

Rep-Cal: 400,000 IU/Kg
Miner-All (I): 4,400 IU/Kg

More on the subject: https://www.chameleonforums.com/trying-make-sense-vitamin-d3-dosages-25003/

 

[carol5208]

i bought my cham in April from a very reputable breeder, Kammerflage Creations, and this is their supplement schedule i have been following. they say to follow this until an adult. Herptivite -Mon-thur RepCal w/D3 Tuesdays and Fridays (depending on indoor or outdoor use) and MinerAll wednesday and saturdays. no supplement on Sunday. This is the schedule I have been following and so far so good. I am not knocking what other people are doing but the vitamin w/d3 is being used twice a week. They have been breeding for 29 years and I think they should know what they are doing so I am following what they tell me to do.

 

[jannb]

Overdose on D3

This is what Lynda (kinyonga) posted awhile back and I saved it.

Excessive vitamin D3 supplementation can result in organ toxicity (gular edema)metastatic calcification, gout, and pseudo-gout (calcium-like deposit)."

http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/chameleons.asp

Here are some good articles that might help...

http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20060502...rnals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html

 

[carol5208]

I guess I should cut back on the d3 but I cannot understand how a breeder with this supplement schedule has been successful for 29 yrs then.???????????

 

[Monkeykungphu]

I'm really interested in this thread as there's lots of varying information about supplementation schedules out there. Most of what I've read on this site concerning supplement schedule states a schedule similiar to what Jannb has described above.

With a young cham:
calcium without D3 just about every day
Calcium with D3 twice a month
and multi vit. once or twice a month

Although, the more I read, the more I see different opinions on what the supplement schedule should be. As a new baby panther owner I would love to get a solid & correct supplementation schedule from the get go. With all of the available products out there between Repcal, Herptivite, Miner-All, w/D3, w/o D3, etc.... it can be somewhat intimidating trying to figure out what to use & when to use it.

For instance, the following was taken from the first link (seavs.com) that JannB provided, which contradicts the schedule she listed (don't mean to knock you in anyway Jan, you certainly seem like you know what you're doing, however it list information different than what you stated):

Some of the most promising results have come from routine daily use of phosphorous-free, calcium-only supplements with occasional use of vitamin D3 (e.g., three to four times weekly for juveniles, twice weekly for adults) and multi-vitamin supplements (e.g., one to two times weekly for juveniles, every other week for adults).

Take from:

http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/chameleons.asp

I would love to hear what some experts have to say on this subject as to what a correct supplementation schedule should be.

 

[draetish]

I'm certainly no expert but what works for me, may not work for others. If your cham gets enough natural sunlight say 2-3 hours a day or every other day, then you wouldn't need D3 at all. However, that is not the case in the winter, so you have to compromise and come up with your own schedule. Also if your feeders are gutloaded properly, you may not need the vitamin supplment except maybe once a month. So you see there is no one way that fits all situtations. My suggestion is to learn as much as you can on your own about what supplements you use and "why" you use them. Also research the signs of over-supplementing. I think calcium with no D3 or phosphorus is the #1 most important supplement we can give our chams.

 

[fluxlizard]

I would love to hear what some experts have to say on this subject as to what a correct supplementation schedule should be.

Unless you are taking blood from your chams and measuring things found in the blood, you are going to be guessing.

Correct supplementation schedule would depend on factors like insects consumed, what they have been gutloaded, what else the chameleon is eating (salad, fuzzies or pinkies for example), what temperature the lizard is being kept at most of the time (higher temps = higher metabolism = faster use of nutrients) what sort of housing and lighting is being used (indoor vs outdoor, a good uvb tube indoors vs uvheat vs a lower end tube).

Then there is the age of the chameleon- young animals will need more nutrients for growth than old animals.

Then there is the sex of the chameleon- females have different needs than males and actively reproducing females will need more nutrients than males.

I think the best most of us can do is take an educated guess, read all we can, account for the opinions of others, have a go and observe our animals and watch carefully for problems. Repeat and re-evaluate over and over again.

 

[Stephikins]

There are a lot of factors to consider. Like I just found out the gutload I use for my crickets has d3 in it already. & I was researching rat poison for my work and found out the D3 is in a lot of rodenticide (http://www.ehow.co.uk/about_6065283_cholecalciferol-rat-poison.html). So definitively want to watch your supplementation with that.

Best thing to do is research the feeders and gut loads you give. If you a balanced gut-load and nutritious feeders then you may be able to cut back on the multi-vitamin dusting, etc..


Best Blogs about these topics. Thanks Sandra Chameleon!

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/74-feeders.html

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html

Good Luck

 

[sandrachameleon]

The amount of D3 between suppliers can be as much as 100x.
Rep-Cal: 400,000 IU/Kg
Miner-All (I): 4,400 IU/Kg

I feel this is key information. The brand you choose makes a big difference in how often you want to use it.
See https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html
As does the type of lighting, the size of the cage, outdoor sun exposure, vitamin A amounts in diet, heat.....
There is no one single answer that fits all situations.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html

 

[zwhitman]

There is no answer to this question!!!

1) Most importantly no one knows the exact nutrient requirements for even common species of chameleons (forget about the rare ones!)

2) The way that people dose powdered vitamins is not standardized. A "pinch" is a BS way to dose anything. How big is your pinch vs mine. How much sticks to the bugs? How much falls off? How long does it take the cham to eat the bugs? How much do the bugs ingest as they clean themselves vs how much falls off? Do you feed out of cup that is coated in old vitamin dust or do you feed in the cage? When you say that you dust every meal, do you feed daily, or every other day, or dump in a ton of crickets for the week? Do you dust all of your feeders or only a few? Do you spray your feeders with water to get the powder to stick? See where I am going with this...

3) Vitamins and minerals degrade over time and there is little quality control to start off with. Analysis have been done on numerous different brands of supplements and many do not have what they claim to have in them. More importantly they are inconsistent from batch to batch.

4) Everyone provides different conditions, temps, diets, lights, stress, ect. There is NO standard supplement schedule that will work for everyone.

There is a wide range of acceptable diet parameters that a healthy chameleon can make use of. Grossly too much and you can have toxicity and over supplementation diseases (Especially with fat soluble vitamins ADEK and certain minerals). Too little and you will get deficiency symptoms. But there is a wide range between those two that can work, depending on the individual animal, and the other husbandry conditions. All of the suggestions mentioned so far are close enough in the ball park to work for some people. I know successful breeders who never supplement and I know breeders who supplement daily.

So how is a person to choose when and what to supplement? I would suggest the following... Feed as varied a diet as you possibly can. Provide as much exposure to natural sun as you possibly can. If you can do both of these things, supplement very sparingly. If you cannot, supplement more heavily. Buy several different reputable brands of supplements and rotate them often. Err on the side of less supplement more frequently, as opposed to infrequent overdoses. Throw them away BEFORE they expire. Shake each can well before you use it. If they get cakey from humidity, throw them away. Keep them someplace dark, dry, and cool. Be cautious using too much of any powder containing preformed vit A.

Most importantly find experienced keepers, and experienced vets and ask them how they do things. Watch your animals carefully and let their behavior and health guide your decision making. Experiment with different schedules and see if you can tell a difference. Like I said... very confusing subject, and definitely no single correct answer.

 

[morpheon]

Zwhitman said it well!

At the end, everyone does it their way. Some don't supplement at all, some do it every day, some very rarely. We would be better at telling you what YOU should do if we knew what husbandry conditions you have!

At the end, both of you can be right in your dispute! I call it a draw!

 

[JJC]

This helped me a lot!

Thank you everyone for taking the time to express their opinions on this subject. It has opened my eyes and made me think about all the factors involved in supplementing...

 

[kinyonga]

One more bit of information that might help...if your chameleon gets exposure to UVB light it will produce its own D3 and it won't build up in the chameleon's system as long as the chameleon can move in and out of the UVB. (BTW...the UVB from either the UVB light or sunlight should not pass through glass or plastic). D3 from supplements can build up in the system and cause health issues. If you give them D3 twice a month you will ensure that they get some D3 without overdosing it and it leaves the chameleon to get the rest of it from its exposure to the (safer) UVB light.

I have been keeping chameleons for over 20 years and breeding them for most of that time. My veiled females, for example generally live to be over 6 years old and males even older...so all I can say is I must be doing something right.

I would love to hear from some of these breeders how long their females live....and what supplements they use so that I would have something to compare what I do to.

 

[summoner12]

Using calcium with D3 twice a week isn't bad if you are aware of what your doing.

It would depend on how much D3 is in the supplement. Rep-Cal has WAY more D3 in it than Miner-All. As Dave has pointed out.

If using Miner-All, twice a week would be fine.