Sometimes dragging back legs

[IramBa]

Hi, everyone.

My 3 year old panther is acting a little weird recently but only in terms of his movements. He eats very well and is active for most of the day, moving around and basking. But, sometimes during every day, he drags his back legs and it's causing him to sometimes slip off of the branches? It's like he doesnt want to use his back legs so is trying to pull himself up with his front ones I initially thought it might be because the uv bulb was getting to a year old, so i replaced that as well as replacing his supplements as some were either out of date or just about to be out of date. I dont think hes in pain, but i can't be sure. I just wanted to know if there is anything else I can try to get him back to normal all of the time.
Some added info, when I take him out of his enclosure he uses all of his legs and they all seem to have good grip and he can pull/hold himself up with any number/combination of his legs. Is he just being a bit lazy when basking?

Thanks!

 

[IramBa]

Here's a picture of him just now. As you can see, he's holding on with all of his legs.

 

[Beman]

Can you try to get some pics of his back legs so we can see them well?

What uvb type and strength are you using? What is the distance from the fixture to the branch?

What insects are you feeding him and what are you using for gutload?

What supplements are you using and on what schedule?

What is his hydration schedule and method? Do you actively see him drinking?

 

[IramBa]

Yes, I have a video of him climbing from 2 days ago that I'll send where you can see him using his back legs.

Its a 6% Arcadia t5 and it's 8 inches from the basking branch.

He eats 5-7 locusts/silkworms every 2 days. The worms eat chow and the locusts eat pakchoi, arugala, spring greens and their food is dusted with arcadia insect fuel.

He has EP-A every feeding 1,2,3,5,6,7
Then calcium mg feeding 4
And revitalise d3 feeding 8.

10 minutes misting at 7:40 pm (bed at 8 pm)
3 minutes misting at 8:05 am (lights come on at 8)
Dripper every day at around 4:45. Yes occasionally I see him drink, but less so recently. His urates have been still the same, mostly white and a bit of orange.

 

[IramBa]

 

[Beman]

So your husbandry is basically on point. There are a few things I look for when someone mentions symptoms like this.
1. if they are feeding roaches as they can build up uric acid that passes to the cham and can be hard for them to clear.
2. If they are supplementing with too much fat soluble vitamins.
3. Is UVB on point.
4. Weight of chameleon as in overall body condition and if they are overweight at all.
5. hydration.

So what you are describing are all signs of gout or Pseudogout.

Now #1,2, and 3 are not factors in your situation as all of these are on point and perfect.

However #4 is impacting. He is a little overweight you can see it in his casque and cheek pads along with his limbs being a little less muscular than they should be. when they are over a year old sometimes you need to reduce food to 3-5 insects 2 days a week. This works out so you are fully skipping 2 days in between feedings. Note feeders should not be larger if they are that is where you reduce to 3 insects. If they are on the smaller side then you can bump up to max 5 insects. You want them to slowly take grams off. If you have a gram scale get a weight on him. Track the reduction. You do not want a fast weight loss it is not healthy for them. With being overweight this can compromise organ function. What we are looking at specifically is the renal system and how well the kidneys are functioning. Urate can look perfectly fine with this so the only way to really know where his levels are and if he has a uric acid build up is to do blood work.

#5 could also be a factor. Especially based on when he beds down and when he get up in the morning. So if he is still tucked in when that morning misting is happening he is not going to trigger to drink. Kicking that misting back 15 minutes so he has 20 minutes to get up and moving and extending the misting time if needed and only if your ambient conditions will allow for it. This then gives him a morning misting first thing. You night misting is basically obsolete as it is so late in the day he is not going to be actively drinking since he is more then likely fully bedded down by then. Dripper is ok and I imagine you kick that on when you get home. But again it is later in the day so he is going a very long period of time without opportunities to drink. I am not sure when you run your basking fixture. I always found it helpful to have this kick on about an hour after T5 comes on in the morning so you can have a morning misting without risk of overly elevating the humidity with heat. Then having it kick off early afternoon say by 3pm. This allows for time to have a misting around 5pm as the cage is cooling and an opportunity for the cham to drink. When they are older like your guy they do not need to bask all day like babies do due to their intense food intake to digest.

This is the other factor when you are looking at a cham doing the behavior your describing. And it is even more of an issue as they age and get older. Hydration is key to help the organs function as they should. Again urate may appear to be perfectly fine but you can have a cham with reduced kidney funtion showing perfectly hydrated urates.

So small tweaks refining husbandry to accommodate a fully mature male. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[IramBa]

Thank you so much, Beman! You are always so great at explaining things.

So, I wondered about his weight too. I'll cut him back 1/2 feeders so it's more like 3-5 instead of 5-7 each time. I'll weigh him later on, how can I see what a healthy weight would be for him? or am I just trying to drop him a few grams in general? and with hydration, I'll move the morning misting back a bit and I've also rearranged some plants so that there are more 'drinkable' leaves (Ones that he can see droplets on).
I run the t5 from 8-8 and the plant light the same. The basking fixture comes on at 9:30 am and goes off at 4:30 pm. So about 15 minutes later I give him the dripper.
The only thing i've occasionally noticed about his urates are that they are a bit wet. The fecal part is solid and the colour is mostly white with a little orange, but sometimes the urates are a bit watery, could this be another sign of gout or pseudogout?

 

[Beman]

Thank you so much, Beman! You are always so great at explaining things.

So, I wondered about his weight too. I'll cut him back 1/2 feeders so it's more like 3-5 instead of 5-7 each time. I'll weigh him later on, how can I see what a healthy weight would be for him? or am I just trying to drop him a few grams in general? and with hydration, I'll move the morning misting back a bit and I've also rearranged some plants so that there are more 'drinkable' leaves (Ones that he can see droplets on).
I run the t5 from 8-8 and the plant light the same. The basking fixture comes on at 9:30 am and goes off at 4:30 pm. So about 15 minutes later I give him the dripper.
The only thing i've occasionally noticed about his urates are that they are a bit wet. The fecal part is solid and the colour is mostly white with a little orange, but sometimes the urates are a bit watery, could this be another sign of gout or pseudogout?

Weight with chams is hard... on a male that is approximately a total length of 15 inches they should really be sitting at 140 grams max.. But this is not an exact science either because you have to look at the body as a total. If they are leaner and muscular at 150 then they are good. If they are heavier showing cheek pads and casque being fuller then they are already overweight. They end up with a fat layer in the abdomen that causes issues with how well the organ systems function.

So if you can give me a total length on him that would help me more. The longer they are the more weight they can technically hold without being overweight.

Adjust basking to kick off at 3:30pm and then run a longer 5 minute misting about 6pm. Unless he beds down before this. If he is still up and moving around then 6pm will be good and he will have the time to trigger a drinking response. Move morning misting later as I suggested. you may not need to make that one longer just move later so he is up and seeing the movement of the water.


Are you fogging as well? As long as the urates are holding a shape and not looking like runny egg whites your good. If they are pure liquid then he is actually on the "over hydrated" side which you can see happen with fogging too much.

Again this is one of those more iffy things could be totally linked to the weight. But I found as Beman got older he needed to drink. He dealt with a lot of stiffness with moving. If he did not have the opportunities to drink it got worse.

 

[IramBa]

Thank you again. I don't fog. I've adjusted the mister to go off at 8:10 am so he has a chance to wake up properly first. Do you think I should see how it goes with just that and the feeding changes for now?

 

[Beman]

Thank you again. I don't fog. I've adjusted the mister to go off at 8:10 am so he has a chance to wake up properly first. Do you think I should see how it goes with just that and the feeding changes for now?

Yes, exactly... One change to misting at first so you see how that impacts him and how he responds. Then give that a good 4 days to see if anything else needs tweaks or fine tuning. Start the diet as well as we know that one is a direct impact with him holding a little extra chunk.

 

[IramBa]

Thanks so much for all your help, as always!