Some Thoughts On Breeding

[newbie]

I posted this on another thread but it also seems appropriate here.
My last two chameleons to lay eggs did over one-hundred and forty (140) eggs with one doing seventy-six. I mated mine early in their lives. Mine were born mid October 2009 and each has had a clutch (that's 5 females) and two, two clutches. Each clutch has been over fifty. I dispose of the eggs as I soon realized that finding homes for the animals would be time consuming with little chance of selling them all. Unless you can devote lots of time and money to rearing them then I would think about your options carefully. Rearing them is difficult and the food they need cant usually be found at a local shop. At about six months (of age) most will require separate vivariums.

Please note just raising twelve is time consuming and very expensive as I have found out! I don't know how to cope with any more.

 

[Jimturner]

back in the early 90s I purchased my first cham, a WC sambava panther... that soon led to acquiring a female. I had great success with incubating and hatching. being all alone in my hobby in southern Alberta these babies sold quickly and easily. I soon got into veilds & nosybe panthers. had literally hundreds of offspring flooding the local market. eventually my great love became my great burden, swamped with way to much for myself to care for coupled with ethical difficulties as most of these babies were sold to pet stores that seemed to refuse to supply the necessities these fragile creatures required eventually leading me to give up my beloved hobby. recently I have got back into chams but have learnt my lesson.. no breeding for me

 

[Samba and Salsa]

Great topic / my intro

I have been lurking here for quite some time but haven't posted much. I am a fairly new cham owner - it's been a little over 6 months or so. I have a male and female veiled (housed separately) but am also incubating 22 eggs - they were laid on January 18. Apparently my female was gravid when I brought her home as she had been housed along with males. I am not even sure if my male is the father. I decided to keep the eggs to see what happens. I have been reading everything I can and learning as much as possible, and I completely understand how expensive this hobby is. I absolutely love my chams and believe that I am a responsible pet owner. I also have 2 kids, 10 & 12. My 10 year old is a huge animal lover and we are having a lot of fun with this. It's like a giant science project, hobby and money pit, all in one! We also have 3 dogs, 2 turtles, and a snake, so it's a real zoo around here. I don't have any delusions about making money from the babies (if they even make it) and I don't plan to breed them again any time soon!

Sorry for the length of this post. Just thought it was time to stop lurking and introduce myself. I have really been enjoying learning from all of you.

Marci

 

[curltail]

I was given a clutch of eggs by some inexperienced coincidental breeders. I hadn't bred mine yet but had been working on raising my own pair to full maturity. Their female died soon after laying and I began the nine month process of incubation. Words cannot describe the excitement one feels when they peak in on their eggs for what seems like the billionth time to find a baby chameleon tinier than you could have imagined that whole time. It really does make you want to shout from the rooftops and tell everyone you see about it. It also makes you wonder how something so small can be alive. I gave a demonstrative speech about it at the community college and everything. The sad thing was that I had to sell them to a pet store on the coast for a mere 300 dollars, what I guessed I probably spent on the project. All in all it is a life changing event and something I will always remember about my early twenties. I've almost considered it tattoo worthy. If only the people you sold them too actually did call you with questions or provide all the information and necessities to their customers. Maybe someday I will do it again but my male died just past his sixth year. Now I just have my poor widow chameleon, Ursela.

 

[lyndsey]

anyone no any breeders/ petshops where i can find a baby chameleon? and enar stockton on tees. any replies would be greatly appreciated or breeders/ pet shops that sell babies that deliver?
thanks

 

[chamguy]

I am a novice of all lizards and chameleons especially, and I know how beginners jump to making profits right away before learning years of husbandry required to keep these amazing animals alive and well.

The only thing i do no like about threads like this ( not saying its bad) is they seem to crush the dream of breeding animals as a side job/career. I believe it can be done by cutting expenses such as feeders. Not saying this can be done over night or even in 2 years but after years of experience then it can be dont to make a profit, most likely a side-job. ( not as beginner)

I'm not into this hobby to make money, but I believe it would be awesome to do something you enjoy as a career.
Let me know what you think.

 

[NWD]

hard business

hard business to get going in i'd say before anyone begins they should start establishing a colony of feeders will cut the costs down sooooo much. It takes a while to get to a point of success and you either need quantity or quality because pet stores want for cheap and online people want quality. Most importantly it has to be a passion or hobby first and what success that may stem from it is just an added bonus.

 

[Itwas]

anyone no any breeders/ petshops where i can find a baby chameleon? and enar stockton on tees. any replies would be greatly appreciated or breeders/ pet shops that sell babies that deliver?
thanks

petmania on Portrack Lane sell Veileds but to be honest they are kept in very small cages and look a bit... unhealthy is the wrong word id say more just unhappy. Id say the best place to get a baby cham in the Stockton area is Aquatic finatics in Northallerton, they are a small independent shop and look after their animals well.

 

[NWD]

Someone

Someones gotta give those poor chams a home though or else they will be stuck in that small cage

 

[AsiaKauffman]

Me and my girlfriend are planning on selling chameleons in the near future. We love chameleons and we are constantly learning and asking questions to the people who are already very successful in this industry. Me and my gf have invested so much money and time to chameleons that no matter what happens we are going to have no regrets. We hope to share our knowledge and love of chameleons to everyone that is willing to listen and learn. Its not about money to us, We both grew up loving reptiles at a very young age. I would save up money at the age of 7 to buy turtles, lizards, snakes, frogs, as well as catching them in my backyard. Chameleons I would have to say is my most favorite pet that I have ever owned. WE LOVE THEM !!!!!!

Ditto! I am thinking about going back to school to be a vet/go to Africa to see them in their environmet, just so I can learn, then have my own rescue and be able to care for these guys completely. I love these little guys so much, the money is worth the moments i get just being near them. I hope to one day write medical books on my discoveries and children's books to help others properly care for them and if they can't, I'll hopefully have space for them.

 

[CammieBaby]

It runs in the family..??

 

[CammieBaby]

Yeah I like you...

 

[ncrippen]

Breeding and feeder costs

I have been breeding veiled Chameleons for 5 years now. I'm finally at a point to where I have almost two clutches a month hatching and have a nice client base. They do eat like pigs!!!! I was spending at least $100 per week on food for my adults and babies. I finally solved my insect costs...I sell bugs as well. I don't make money on bugs...it just covers my food costs. It is a lot of work...but It does not cost me any thing for feeders and my babies are fat everyday with plenty to eat.

 

[Hoj]

this thread made me realize its probably time to do what we can to get an FAQ compiled so new users can get the thoughts of senior members on issues like this in one place right when they walk in the door

there should be a bulletin thread with suggestions of questions up for consideration to be put in the faq, and another for people to write articals for the mods to consider on making care easier for the average person. the faq is something that has been talked about for a long time, and i think that its time, and the resources are here to collectively start knocking out question after question until we have a really nice list broken down into categories like pre-purchase thoughts, set up/enclosure, hydration/nutrition, breeding, DIY threads, general dos/don'ts, health and reading your chameleon, advanced , misc. etc etc i can't name everything but with everyones help i'm sure we could get that done really quickly and i'm sure some of you have AWESOME ideas because there are some eternally awesome people on this site

the knowledge level of the new owners would be outrageously high than of that previously just from us accomplishing this one common goal, imagine new users actually knowing important things right away, wow! how many times have we seen the same question asked over and over and how much trouble would it have save the person if he or she saw it coming? I feel its kinda our duty to help those who cannot help themselves at least for the sake of the chams. it would clear the forum out for threads that actually rock. and you could actually find the kickass threads, because there wouldn't be 9 million wtf calcium d3? posts I've been around and i still don't know n e thing it seems, point being there needs to be a common ground; one click that gives you access to all things u need to know like a cheat sheet, and if our organizational skills serve us correctly which they will cuz me and justin carl and the rest of us are freaking awesome, it will read like a short story from start to finish, telling new members the thoughts, mistakes, and ingenuity of people, and will literally make all new members much less frustrated prone to the same damn mistakes, and do amazing thing for all these poor chameleons being cared for by humans with more important priorities and lack of knowledge because the info is all over the place and clouded up by people asking the same questions over and over again.

i approach everything like i am a student of the game. and if there is an faq i have a place to easily go to continue to further what I know, and refer back to until i can experience first hand, at which time I may make my own suggestions, so it seems people should also have the chance to make extra notes to someones faq artical such as "yeah, he or she was right about this but in my experiences there is a little better way to do this part blah blah blooo bbleeee blah, and thats how knowledge is spread.(and babies are made) chameleons babies that is

anyways that is all for now thanks

great thread, and the above post is spot on, some great ideas i would love to see this,
i am currently preparing and reasearching to breed my quads and deff, would love to have a single point for info.

 

[jesusdiedlol]

If you've ever experienced a Chameleon birth, it is freekin awesome. The mating is also good.

 

[chamguy]

Great post, and I agree with all but possibly one contraversial aspect. The no profit idea;.I have seen threads just like these on every other reptile based website. Yes, those who see it as a quick buck ( such as my brother) will not survive because they do not have the drive to keep it going through the hard times and the learning experinces, but I truely believe someone like myself and many others out there who TRUELY enjoy the hobby, take years to gain experince, can successfully make a decent profit. I will say, I have never bred chameleons, but I have made a profit with bearded dragons who are not as valueable compared to panthers.
But agian, here comes another point. After some of us do make a profit,( years down the road) we all will just invest it back into the hobby by aquireing more breeders or top of the line cages. I am not refering to paying for feeders, or replaceing lights, but spending it on herp related items we could do without. There are many ways to cut costs such as breeding your own feeders, but these require more work aswell.

So I do believe anyone with the drive could potentially make a profit, but I can see why people say you cant because most of us turn around and buy more goodies for our reptiles. My dream is to be a well known breeder of many species while makeing it a part time job in the future. Even if I spend the money on more reptiles I still see it as one and a very rewarding one as well.

I do not breed in hopes to gain a fortune, but to gain experince. That is just one of my goals.

 

[Mario Vermunt]

Very well said Chamguy.

In the long run, you can only do it if you are really dedicated to your chams.

Yes you can make a little profit out of veileds, and out of Panthers some more, if you are succesfull in breeding. For all other cham species i think it will be very hard. The joy is in gaining experience, and most likely the profit will be going to other cham species and even out again ;-)

Typically Panther and veileds can produce much more offspring each year compared to other species. And chance of success with other species is typically also lower as well.

Price of Panthers (125 euro here in holland) is relatively high compared to other species. Just because there is a lot of demand. No need of being afraid you will not be able to sell them.
Others species which are still imported as wc, make the pricing relatively low, its as good as impossible to come out "break even" on those.

 

[Chameleoco]

Great post, and I agree with all but possibly one contraversial aspect. The no profit idea;.I have seen threads just like these on every other reptile based website. Yes, those who see it as a quick buck ( such as my brother) will not survive because they do not have the drive to keep it going through the hard times and the learning experinces, but I truely believe someone like myself and many others out there who TRUELY enjoy the hobby, take years to gain experince, can successfully make a decent profit. I will say, I have never bred chameleons, but I have made a profit with bearded dragons who are not as valueable compared to panthers.
But agian, here comes another point. After some of us do make a profit,( years down the road) we all will just invest it back into the hobby by aquireing more breeders or top of the line cages. I am not refering to paying for feeders, or replaceing lights, but spending it on herp related items we could do without. There are many ways to cut costs such as breeding your own feeders, but these require more work aswell.

So I do believe anyone with the drive could potentially make a profit, but I can see why people say you cant because most of us turn around and buy more goodies for our reptiles. My dream is to be a well known breeder of many species while makeing it a part time job in the future. Even if I spend the money on more reptiles I still see it as one and a very rewarding one as well.

I do not breed in hopes to gain a fortune, but to gain experince. That is just one of my goals.

Very well said

 

[MamaD]

Everyone has given so much great input! I guess the first thing I would ask anyone interested in breeding is "Why?". Figure out the "Why?" and then realistically decide if the venture is for you. For me, breeding didn't start with that specific intention nor did it happen overnight. I started with 2 chams and it just kind of took on a life of its own! I don't work outside the home so this is a very manageable business for me. It takes patience, time, etc.. What is my "Why?" you ask...it's not for the money at all. It's because I hate seeing people buy pet store and "puppy mill" type pets only to find out they aren't healthy and haven't been given the right care info. from the get go. I truely do care about these poor animals! It breaks my heart. I like knowing that any animal I buy came from a private breeder who is educated and has cared for the pet to the best of their ability.

 

[Canny Chams]

quite frankly i would have been screwed when it came to panther chameleon breeding if i didnt have my crested gecko breeding business up and running, their were alot of expenses, learning experiances, etc. i had to pay like 1400 to get a different mitsio bloodline here, i had to deal with a vitamin A defitiency, cocidia, mouth rot. It all added up, plus my very first batch of eggs was 34 eggs! so then i spent hundreds of dollars on pinhead crickets, which was a huge stress on the wallet. I also had help with moisture levels in the containers for the eggs, and incubation temps. if i didnt have the gecko business i wouldnt be able to afford all of that, i did make a decent profit though, but it took 2 years to pay off the capital