Snails?

[Freedom1]

I wanted to get some new feeders for my chameleon. I heard that snails are a great choice. I was wondering what type of snail chameleons eat and how they eat them. Do they eat the shell and all? So do you just feed like other feeders such as crickets and roaches? And what do you gutload them with? Anything different? Also how many should i feed her if I get them, they seem kinda large compared to other feeders.

 

[coastal_chameleon]

helix aspersa are very common , and they do eat the shell .that's why the are high in calcium .
I think their shells are up to 99 percent calcium .and chameleons usually take about a week to fully digest the shell so they get constant small amounts of calcium .

and for gut loading I like to use nopales ( cactus ) but they eat many other veggies .

 

[cyberlocc]

^

As to how much ect, probably dont feed massive ones, feed smallish ones, relative to the size of the animal with some soft bodies.

It takes quite a bit for a Snail to reach full size. Also to house adult snails, the snail folks, say 1 per gallon, which I have stuck pretty close to for Adults personally. So housing that many adults would be a challenge. Babies, are tiny, and put some weight on pretty quick, so feed them when they are smaller.

Fun tip, you can double up your colonies. Keep 1 viv for your adults, your breeders, and make baby tubs. Then when the babies hatch and get some size to them, put them into a dry container. When they are not provided water, they will aestivate, (form a seal with something and sleep till water is back) they can live like this for up to 2 years.

To bring them back from this sleep, all you have to do is get them wet. The seal is made to be broken by a heavy rain. So allow them to seal up, when not immediately needed, GENTLY pull one out of aestivation when needed, and spray it with water, and feed him some food and then feed him to the Cham.

H. aspersa dont take to this as babies, but Dime sized or so, they can aestivate fine. I have been trying to get some smaller species myself, to be able to raise to adult and then aestivate extras.

Breaking the seal between the surface, may not hurt their internal seal, so you may even be able to break the seal and put them into a jar or some such, and still wake them up, I havent tried. It would be even easier to do though, and require less room for "Snail Storage"

 

[Redman]

I had planned to try to get some wc snails going to breed and discard the adults, but I have lately been having a crazy idea:

I have fed aquatic snails to our blue tongue skink with great results. I am wondering how the chams might take to them?

Disclaimer: I KNOW that they would never eat these in the wild. Period. I am 100% aware!

I just don't see a down side to trying it out. Ramshorn snails are soft shelled, VERY easy to culture, and reproduce rapidly.

Any thoughts, other than "Don't be ridiculous! They don't eat them in the wild!!"? Seriously, just don't. LOL

 

[cyberlocc]

I had planned to try to get some wc snails going to breed and discard the adults, but I have lately been having a crazy idea:

I have fed aquatic snails to our blue tongue skink with great results. I am wondering how the chams might take to them?

Disclaimer: I KNOW that they would never eat these in the wild. Period. I am 100% aware!

I just don't see a down side to trying it out. Ramshorn snails are soft shelled, VERY easy to culture, and reproduce rapidly.

Any thoughts, other than "Don't be ridiculous! They don't eat them in the wild!!"? Seriously, just don't. LOL

Well they dont eat them in the wild, so there is that.

Aquatic snails, tend to be very bacteria ridden, so I have always seen with feeding snails, that using aquatic ones is a big dont.

BTS's eat Land snails in the wild, dont they? So he would benefit from them as well.

 

[Kaizen]

Here’s what I did: went on eBay, ordered a few dozen helix aspersa, got em’, let em’ lay eggs, removed the eggs from the adult enclosure and hatched em’. The babies are almost surely parasite free, and my chams love em...especially my tj’s. Use the same size metric as you would for any other feeder, and incorporate them once a week or bi-weekly.

 

[cyberlocc]

I would STRONGLY advise against above.

USDA, is supposed to enforce the transfer of a lot of insects, and a lot in the hobby are restricted and not allowed to be shipped. So folks, on Ebay and the like, get lured into a false security, as the USDA enforcement is not that great they dont have the time or the resources, to worry about people shipping their mantids, and such.

Snails, they do enforce. They take that very very very seriously. People go to jail, for quite a long time for importing Snails. There is reports and articles on the snail groups about it. There is also active USDA employees in the group, that will tell you quite plainly, they will arrest you. They do not play about Snails.

If customs catches you importing a snail. You will not get an empty box with a paper, you will get Feds at your door, who will then go throw your entire Reptile and Insect collection, confiscate, fine you, and depending how much questionable stuff you have, you may go to jail.

Its 100% not worth the risk. You can find snails, anywhere and everywhere.

 

[Redman]

Aquatic snails, tend to be very bacteria ridden, so I have always seen with feeding snails, that using aquatic ones is a big dont.

I would love to find some documentation on this. I have a large aquatic community that I am part of that would appreciate the info.

I will look into it myself, but if you have any links I would surely appreciate it.

 

[Freedom1]

I would STRONGLY advise against above.

USDA, is supposed to enforce the transfer of a lot of insects, and a lot in the hobby are restricted and not allowed to be shipped. So folks, on Ebay and the like, get lured into a false security, as the USDA enforcement is not that great they dont have the time or the resources, to worry about people shipping their mantids, and such.

Snails, they do enforce. They take that very very very seriously. People go to jail, for quite a long time for importing Snails. There is reports and articles on the snail groups about it. There is also active USDA employees in the group, that will tell you quite plainly, they will arrest you. They do not play about Snails.

If customs catches you importing a snail. You will not get an empty box with a paper, you will get Feds at your door, who will then go throw your entire Reptile and Insect collection, confiscate, fine you, and depending how much questionable stuff you have, you may go to jail.

Its 100% not worth the risk. You can find snails, anywhere and everywhere.

So since it's illegal to sell snails... I have to find them outside? Are there any helix aspersa snails in VA?

 

[Redman]

Its 100% not worth the risk. You can find snails, anywhere and everywhere.

I guess my real concern is how quickly and prolifically do they reproduce? Is it enough to support a good sized group of chams? Hmmmm.....

 

[Redman]

So since it's illegal to sell snails...

I actually believe that it's managed in the US at the State DNR level. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I saw a list of invasive and banned species on my states DNR website.

 

[cyberlocc]

I guess my real concern is how quickly and prolifically do they reproduce? Is it enough to support a good sized group of chams? Hmmmm.....

Well that would be why the USDA is so hard on snails.

For 1, a group of 10 adult snails, can eat an entire cantaloupe in a few hours. They litteraly do not stop eating. If you provide them food, they will eat it.

As to the how prolific. Land snails, lay around 100 eggs, (80-120, depending) and usually do this once or twice a month, per snail.

Snails are hermaphrodites, and when they mate usually both become impregnated. If of the desire and cannot find a mate, a snail can impregnate itself.

So ya you could defiantly get a serious amount of baby snails very quickly.

I actually believe that it's managed in the US at the State DNR level. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I saw a list of invasive and banned species on my states DNR website.

So the thing with snails. It is okay to keep a snail you catch in your state, as long as your states DNR does not say you cannot.

However to move a snail across state lines, or from another country is the USDAs area. Of which, it's not allowed. Unless you have a Permit for the exact species of snail.

Both the buyer and the seller, must have the Permit.


Now again, this applies to alot more than just snails. Phasmids, Mantids, Ect, Ect, Ect we would be here all day. Most of it is not enforced. However Snails are.

 

[Kaizen]

I would STRONGLY advise against above.

USDA, is supposed to enforce the transfer of a lot of insects, and a lot in the hobby are restricted and not allowed to be shipped. So folks, on Ebay and the like, get lured into a false security, as the USDA enforcement is not that great they dont have the time or the resources, to worry about people shipping their mantids, and such.

Snails, they do enforce. They take that very very very seriously. People go to jail, for quite a long time for importing Snails. There is reports and articles on the snail groups about it. There is also active USDA employees in the group, that will tell you quite plainly, they will arrest you. They do not play about Snails.

If customs catches you importing a snail. You will not get an empty box with a paper, you will get Feds at your door, who will then go throw your entire Reptile and Insect collection, confiscate, fine you, and depending how much questionable stuff you have, you may go to jail.

Its 100% not worth the risk. You can find snails, anywhere and everywhere.

Yes, don’t import snails. However, if they’re produced locally, I think you’re alright. No idea what the USDA has to say about about “across state lines”, but I’m in Canada, and we get to send snail mail (pun intended) country wide. So, by all means check your municipal, state and federal laws before ordering anything online. I should also add that ordering firearms, drugs and other prohibited substances online might be illegal, so check that out as well.

 

[cyberlocc]

^ Yes, if someone in your state has Snails, that's fine.

What's not fine is crossing state lines, as long as it's allowed in your state to have snails that is.

If they cross state lines, it becomes federal and they are not playing.

And yes, if your in canada, or EU, ect, they are more Lax about it. They are harsh on other bugs though. However in the US, to the USDA, Snails are Enemy number 1.

We had serious problems with them in the 70s and 80s, not only from them eating crops but rat lung worm causing meningitis and killing people, it was bad, and so they are super strict about snails.

 

[Redman]

Land snails, lay around 100 eggs, (80-120, depending) and usually do this once or twice a month, per snail.

That is exactly the kind of info we need! Thanks for that.

 

[PetNcs]

helix aspersa are very common , and they do eat the shell .that's why the are high in calcium .
I think their shells are up to 99 percent calcium .and chameleons usually take about a week to fully digest the shell so they get constant small amounts of calcium .

and for gut loading I like to use nopales ( cactus ) but they eat many other veggies .

Let me chime in with a slight finetune
The shell of molluscs has three layers:

1. Periostracum. The organic outer layer, which consists of a protein, conhiolin.
2. Ostracum. Middle layer made of ime.
3. Hypostracum. The inner layer is a mother-of-pearl, again lime.

It is not made of Calcium by 99% but by Lime, limestone, calcium carbonate: CaCO3. It contains approx 40% of Calcium.

always, when we talk about calcium as supplement, actually calcium carbonate is meant. You can not provide pure calcium: itnis a highly unstable metal that reacts both with water as well as air (O and N) and providing it pure would cause burns

 

[PetNcs]

I had planned to try to get some wc snails going to breed and discard the adults, but I have lately been having a crazy idea:

I have fed aquatic snails to our blue tongue skink with great results. I am wondering how the chams might take to them?

Disclaimer: I KNOW that they would never eat these in the wild. Period. I am 100% aware!

I just don't see a down side to trying it out. Ramshorn snails are soft shelled, VERY easy to culture, and reproduce rapidly.

Any thoughts, other than "Don't be ridiculous! They don't eat them in the wild!!"? Seriously, just don't. LOL

let me dissapoint you.
many aquatic snails have periods when they climb on the surrounding vegetation and they might not all spend not all lives in the water itself (some do). So, it is quite likely that chameleons might eat even aquatic snails
while their composition is almost identical compared to land snails, I see no big issue to feed with them...

 

[cyberlocc]

let me dissapoint you.
many aquatic snails have periods when they climb on the surrounding vegetation and they might not all spend not all lives in the water itself (some do). So, it is quite likely that chameleons might eat even aquatic snails
while their composition is almost identical compared to land snails, I see no big issue to feed with them...

How high do they climb though?

I dont think that Chameleons actually eat Land Snails, they eat Tree Snails rather which are arboreal.

The reason I use an suggest land snails, as they are easier to feed and care for, and easier to get.

Technically, Tree Snails, are immune to the PPQ 526 limits on Land Snails, and if we could legally capture, and breed Tree Snails, and Provide care for them they could be shipped across state lines, and therefore would be a able sold feeder in the market.


Now the issues,
Tree Snails in the Cont US, are Protected, for the most part.
Tree Snails, do not eat vegetables like the land snails. They only eat Algae, fungus's and mosses from their preferred trees.
Tree Snails, require UVB, to truly survive (some folks, suggest providing Land Snails with UVB as well)

People have kept Tree Snails in captivity, its not easy and the diet is special, and not easily reproduced unless you live around the tree snails in question and their native trees. I really wanted to get Tree Snails, as they are more natural imo, more likely what Chameleons are eating. I am still down to try my hand with them, if we can get some folks together that want to try and make them a thing.



If Aquatic snails climb high enough, to be eaten. That brings up another interesting question, Aquatic snails eat Algae, Seaweed and such, so Spliruina or the likes may be on the diet, so if they are in turn eaten, would that not be a wild sourced way of Spliruana being in the animal?

 

[PetNcs]

dont think that Chameleons actually eat Land Snails, they eat Tree Snails rather which are arboreal.

there is nonsuch category of snails systematically as “tree snails”, it is a trivial name fir various snaks kiving arboreally...
now, yiu are right and mistake at same time.

eg Jacksons, that are notiriousky known to eat snails and I have found radullas in their faeces, inhabit any height from 0 to say 12m maybe higher. They often live on bushy vegetation along streams that reaches just 2-5m height. Aquatic snails climb definitely several meters high, land snails have periods when they climb several meters high and even aggregate at the ends of branches...

If Aquatic snails climb high enough, to be eaten. That brings up another interesting question, Aquatic snails eat Algae, Seaweed and such, so Spliruina or the likes may be on the diet, so if they are in turn eaten, would that not be a wild sourced way of Spliruana being in the animal?

Haha good try! You know the answer is “not really”
The natural occurrence of Spirulina is confined to very specific biotopes such as alcalic lakes with direct exposure of the waters to sun and temperatures of water between 30-40’C, such as lake Chad.... look at the pic and distribution of chameleons: it does not look after too many chameleons, correct?

Most Chameleons live in completely different environments mainly close to mountain streams with cold water...
But, same as the story about an occassional anole contaminating the entire billions heads cricet farm with its tiny dropping, we can not exclude the case when a bird, drinking from lake Chad raises to fly several thousands of miles wearing a passenger on its foot: a tiny snail, that just has the stomach full od spirulina! The snail is so shocked that is stops digesting for weeks so that once the bird reaches the E slopes of Mt Kenya and releases the snail on a bank of small creek. But the water is sooo cold! The snail mist get closer to sun to warm ip and: here we go! Chameleon eats it. And this is how the spirulina is eaten ti prove Necas was not right )) as this adventure was broadcasted worldwide and all snail kids were inspired by the unbeatable heroic snail story, they all want now to fly as well. So, an agency is otganized to irganise great dining services called McSpirullllina’s and once the teeneager snails get their stomach full, they are directed to tje waiting birds that bring them to all regions in Africa to find their destiny as new time heroes flyingC climbing a tree and dying heroic death being eaten by soirilina dependent chameleons... call
Disney or Marwell, that can be a new age if their industry also ))
I hope yiu forgive me the fun I make to use this as a metaphore. Not really, I do not think this way is realistic
But I di not have A peer reviewed paper on Why chameleons do not eat spirulina, french fies and barbecue sauce. So, it is a pure speculation and not science ))

 

[cyberlocc]

there is nonsuch category of snails systematically as “tree snails”, it is a trivial name fir various snaks kiving arboreally...
now, yiu are right and mistake at same time.

eg Jacksons, that are notiriousky known to eat snails and I have found radullas in their faeces, inhabit any height from 0 to say 12m maybe higher. They often live on bushy vegetation along streams that reaches just 2-5m height. Aquatic snails climb definitely several meters high, land snails have periods when they climb several meters high and even aggregate at the ends of branches...


Haha good try! You know the answer is “not really”
The natural occurrence of Spirulina is confined to very specific biotopes such as alcalic lakes with direct exposure of the waters to sun and temperatures of water between 30-40’C, such as lake Chad.... look at the pic and distribution of chameleons: it does not look after too many chameleons, correct?View attachment 260409 Most Chameleons live in completely different environments mainly close to mountain streams with cold water...
But, same as the story about an occassional anole contaminating the entire billions heads cricet farm with its tiny dropping, we can not exclude the case when a bird, drinking from lake Chad raises to fly several thousands of miles wearing a passenger on its foot: a tiny snail, that just has the stomach full od spirulina! The snail is so shocked that is stops digesting for weeks so that once the bird reaches the E slopes of Mt Kenya and releases the snail on a bank of small creek. But the water is sooo cold! The snail mist get closer to sun to warm ip and: here we go! Chameleon eats it. And this is how the spirulina is eaten ti prove Necas was not right )) as this adventure was broadcasted worldwide and all snail kids were inspired by the unbeatable heroic snail story, they all want now to fly as well. So, an agency is otganized to irganise great dining services called McSpirullllina’s and once the teeneager snails get their stomach full, they are directed to tje waiting birds that bring them to all regions in Africa to find their destiny as new time heroes flyingC climbing a tree and dying heroic death being eaten by soirilina dependent chameleons... call
Disney or Marwell, that can be a new age if their industry also ))
I hope yiu forgive me the fun I make to use this as a metaphore. Not really, I do not think this way is realistic
But I di not have A peer reviewed paper on Why chameleons do not eat spirulina, french fies and barbecue sauce. So, it is a pure speculation and not science ))

Oh I didn't / don't think that chameleons eat Spliruina in the wild either. I was just asking if that was possible, if aquatic snails come up.


As I said, I have always been led down the belief that aquatic snails carry bacteria and such, and as such were not ideal as feeders.

I would like a smaller fully grown snail, than what I currently have (H. aspersa) so if there is an aquatic snail, that can also crawl land, as you say, that is smaller, and that's okay to feed. I'm game.

I seen some type of glass snails, that are fairly small staying in a CP group, that came in on a plant and the person started a culture. Finding those native here, is a challenge however.