Sick Veiled

[kenjon]

Hi,

Or boy Ben ( 3 years old ) stopped eating 6 days ago. We know about the hunger periods they go through but this wasn't one. He also stopped pooping at the same time.
We took him to the vet who has limited experience and they suggested giving enemas over 3 days and bloodwork which we did. They now say that the blood work shows sign of Kidney disease and that we should have him put to sleep.
We give him some low protein food and antibiotics by syringe daily but he has got very little energy now and can't hold onto branches so we have him in a smaller tank with fuzzy blanket and heat to keep him comfortable.
His eyes as always are alert, following our every move and we take him out and hold him in his blanket most of the time.
As the vet can give no hope We wondered if anyone has any thoughts at all to help with giving him something to help poop or other.
We know that we are grasping at straws but don't want to give up on him if there is any chance.
All and any suggestions appreciated.

 

[carol5208]

You could try putting him in the shower on a plant or soaking him in a shallow container of warm water. If you soak him in the water, you could also try gently massaging his stomach. If you put him in the shower just make sure the water does not directly hit him. Bounce it off the wall onto the plant

 

[ataraxia]

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule? the age of your bulbs?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?


Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.


Pictures are helpful

 

[Affordable Exotics]

I agree....

In the past warm showers and a massage usually works for dehydration which can also play a big role in your chams number 2 issue ,also tiny amounts of veggie oil would loosen up his lining. Problem is by now he doesnt have the energy to push it out probly....does he still drink readily?

 

[kinyonga]

I'm having difficulty understanding why the vet would prescribe antibiotics when the chameleon may have kidney problems when most antibiotics are hard on the kidneys.

Is the chameleon able to sit on the branch?

What specific supplements have you used for the chameleon and how often for each? What do you feed the insects? What UVB light do you use and when was it changed/replaced last? Is there any glass or plastic between the UVB light and the chameleon?

 

[kenjon]

Ben

Appreciate all the replies.
His cage is a wire type ( similar to large bird cage 4' x 4' x 5' ) there are two combo domes with central ring for uva/uvb and central heat bulbs. In addition we have a ceramic for night also.
We used to mist but then moved to giving him a drink daily after he had been hand fed with gut loaded and calcium dusted crickets - we also gave him lettuce 3 times weekly and he flourised under this.
THis same vet treated his female partner who passed away 2 years ago at age just over one after much problems with being egg bound - we later found out that they had being seeking advice from somwhere else.
You are correct about the antibiotics and even after the diagnosis with the blood work they suggested that we bring him back daily ( they do not or are not prepared to keep overnight re heat etc) for enimas.
We pointed out that it was not fair to him to travel 20 miles each way every day to keep him in an open area with large animals and then give enemas which did not seem to be working other than stressing and told them that we would keep him at home and try to look after ourselves.
He cannot go in his old cage as he is weak and would fall off the branch and all the liquid nutrients which we are giving, we are having to administer by waiting for him to open his mouth to hiss at my wife ( he always had for some reason even although she has been the main person to hand feed him).
I feel that irrespective of whether or not he has a problem with his kidneys which he could have had for some time anyway that if we could get him to poop it would help him.
We have also tried gentle bathing but so far to no avail,

 

[Tandra Lee]

sick cham

hi,i too have been having the same sort of issues,i awoke one morning(now 3 days ago today) to find my veiled hanging by his tail fr a branch and the rest of his body laying on a shelf,his eyes were alert as he looked at me and welcomed me picking him up,i placed him in my kitchen sink in shallow luke warm water on a paper towel and let him soak for an hr..he seemed to be a little better after wards but still was weak..i bathed him again for another hr later in the day and kept placing him under his uvb/uva light alternating with his basking lamp..he hasnt eaten that i have noticed in 3 days now,and his fecal matter was a yellowish water on first day,no poop since then...yesterday(day 2) he was on his vine only hanging on with 2 back legs,i repeated the warm soaking twice and this morning he was clinging strongly with all 4 legs to his vine and is looking better,more alert,more moving than past 2 days!! i have been misting him very often,keeping a close vigil at his side,i have his dripper right by his head where he sits in his uvb/uva light so he can drink when he chooses,he drank some yesterday..his eyes are not as sunk as they were on day one and looked better yesterday and even better today..i have high hopes he will be ok..im thinking the shelf wich had some paint on it(particle board) was being consumed by his crickets and this is the reason he is sick,i removed those crickets and shelf(shelf was new to him,only thing diff)so i will continue to keep a very close eye on him and bathe him again this morning,place him back under his uvb/uva lights..it helps as i said he is getting better!! just try and bathe him for an hr ea time and see if it helps,also use a hand sprayer and consistantly spray his lips so he can drink,until he does drink,at least he wont be dehydrated..i hope he gets better..hugs for you both,i would advise against traveling everday as this would seem to put unessesary stress to an already sick cham..i hate traveling when im sick so....good luck,keep us all posted...

 

[kinyonga]

kenjon...I'm not a vet...maybe one of the vets can answer this for sure....but I think giving the enima would only clean out what was in the cloaca and not get the stuff in the intestines/colon moving.

Also...if the chameleon didn't eat why do you think it should be pooping??

I'm glad you moved him to a different cage where he can still be warm but not fall. If its a veiled you should be able to give it veggie or fruit baby food in a syringe. Sometimes pear baby food gets the bowels moving in chameleons..so it might be worth a shot.

Could you please answer my questions? What specific supplements have you used for the chameleon and how often for each? What do you feed the insects? What UVB light do you use and when was it changed/replaced last? Is there any glass or plastic between the UVB light and the chameleon?

Tandra lee...please do not bathe your chameleon in the kitchen sink. Your chameleon can carry bacteria and you might end up sick yourselves.

Can you post pictures of your chameleon please?

 

[jojackson]

What was its poo like before it stopped? dehydration causes lots of issues ,some of which
will be indicators of kidney problems as a symptom.
Recommending euthanasia seems a drastic leap without indicating how advanced renal system problems may be.

We used to mist but then moved to giving him a drink daily after he had been hand fed with gut loaded and calcium dusted crickets - we also gave him lettuce 3 times weekly and he flourised under this.

I cant stress enough how crucial hydration is to a reptiles wellbeing, its entire functioning relies apon it. Setting up a drip system and misting daily is important to ensure the lizard gets enough moisture. Likewise gutloading (feeding the insects) with fresh veg and fruit will go a long way to ensure adequate hydration.
Keeping the lizard hydrated is of the utmost importance, if you have to hand mist over its head for ten minutes to stimulate drinking then do so, several times a day.
Im assuming from the vets giving enamas (rather crude) that he assumed an intestinal/coelemic blockage, given the animal hasnt pooped at all its possible, but enemas are useless if the blockage is in the intestines. Hydration is the key, without adequate hydration, the lizards digestive function will be well below par, poo will harden in the animals intestines as it tries to conserve moisture. You need to get it ingesting water, or have a vet inject fluids under the skin if nessesary.
A week without eating is not such a problem for an adult lizard, so is secondry to hydration. Once the lizards electrolite and fluid balance is restored, then get it eating by whatever means, although I strongly recommend Not attempting to force feed it if you are not experienced. Inhaling food or water is often fatal. Best to try a variety of juicy feeders such as silkworms or the like and encourage the lizard to eat of its own volition. That you can do now anyway, juicy feeders like that will help with hydration if its eats them.

You offer very little information about the lizard and its setup which might help us see what went wrong and prevent it in future.
If you could please fill this out below, by cutting and pasting Your answers, this will be very helpful for us to help you.
Cheers



Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.


Pictures are helpful

 

[kenjon]

Ben - sick veiled

Again thanks to all. We are now trying the baby prune juice.
to answer some of the questions;
Ben is a veiled about 3 years old.
His diet has been mainly crickets hand fed small ones.
He used to eat about 10 -15 daily.
The crickets were fed a gut loader and then tossed in Flukers calcium Vitamin D3 suppliment. the crickets were also fed veggies and fruit including strawbwerry and lettuce.
His home is a freee standing large bird style enclosure about 4' x 4' x 5'.
It is located in our hallway next to our living area where he can see what is going on. He was always very curious and never stressed by our presence.
He has two Zilla Desert series combo domes which have T5 fluorescent 23 watt full spectrum UV circular bulbs and halogen day and night heat bulbs.
in addition he has a ceramic 100watt Flukers mini sun dome.
Bulbs are replaced about every three months.
There is no glass in his enclosure and the lamps etc all sit on the top level on a wire grid where he cannot access or get close enought to burn himself.
The cage is about 24" from the floor although he lives in the upper section about4-41/2 foot from the floor.
No vents or fans or drafts.
Temperature ranges from low 70 to high 100/05 high end

His last poop was pellet shaped about 1" long with some soft white/yellow liquid which is what it has always looked like.
We have left drips in the enclosure and misted daily usually over all the artificial leaves for about 20 seconds and never saw him drink.
He usually allows us to hand feed him water from a bottle or mist in his mouth after eating.
I will try to attach some pics his home and of Ben taken a few moments ago.

Again many thanks to all

 

[Psi]

Have you tried to feed him anything other then crickets?

 

[jojackson]

Prune juice wont help him poo if its hardened, though it will go some way toward hydration, but water is better.
20 seconds is nowhere near enough time to encourage drinking mate.

Keeping the lizard hydrated is of the utmost importance, if you have to hand mist over its head for ten minutes to stimulate drinking then do so, several times a day.

His last poop was pellet shaped about 1" long with some soft white/yellow liquid which is what it has always looked like.

Requires more hydration and an examination for parasites cant hurt.
Your heat source still seems mighty close and a litle excessive, his casque looks like it has sustained a burn, though its difficult to tell, can you post another of bens casque front on? also a shot (upward) inside the cage?
Your cage type looks nice but is better for bird, it certainly wont hold any heat no matter how many bulbs you use (heat rises) and you wont have any gradient to speak of (variation in temps from cool to warm.
In your case 100/105 is too hot, due to lack of gradient, since all the heat is within a few inches of the top .
These are issue you will need to address. Nice croc/gator head.

 

[ruru]

someone on here once told me to try feeding them small slivers of fresh grapes
it did the trick for my veiled and havent had problems since....good luck

 

[Carlton]

Also...if the chameleon didn't eat why do you think it should be pooping??

I have to ask this too. If he hasn't been eating he may not have enough mass in his GI tract to pass. He can't poop what's not there. Are there any other signs that he has a lot of stuff in his bowel (ultrasound, xray, palpation).

 

[kenjon]

Ben

I forgot to mention that the vet initially ran an x-ray which showed substance in his colon but the enemas they said only resulted in a little ( tea spoon ) of result.
I shall try to ensure more hydration and try some tiny pieces of fruit.
I shall revisit his enclosure re temperatures although we have thermometers on different levels which showed these readings and we also have underfloor heating in our home.
Will keep you all posted as to any progress.

 

[kenjon]

Ben's Update

As the smaller enclosure left little room for him to move and we thought that his being able to move about may help with bowel movement, we relocated Ben to the original one which he and his partner Mandy shared as babies and lined the bottom with blankets in case he fell off the branches.
We thought that if it were his time, what better a place to be in than where he spent his childhood.
We continued to bring him out to be with us two or three times daily and also force fed lactulose ( synthetic sugar solutuion to treat the constipation) low protein catfood again in liquid form and water. Yesterday he started to poop and poop, regaining much of his strength in his arms and legs and today we put him back in his own enclosure where he has just taken by himself 5 wax worms and 2 little crickets.
He may or may not have a problem with his kidneys ( the vet reluctantly gave us copies of the blood work but we could find no reference to this other than elevated protein levels) but we are convinced that with TLC together with all the sage advice which the forum members have given us and for which we are most grateful, that Ben has a good chance of recovery.
Again many thanks to all.