Should we be cooking our carrots and some other veggies?

JacksJill

Chameleon Enthusiast
I always laugh when people get excited about raw diets. Cooking breaks down the plant cell walls that are indigestible fibre (cellulose). Only animals that have multiple stomachs or very extensive large intestines that use bacterial digestion to breach the cell wall and unlock the nutrients. Most carnivores and omnivores do not. If you want to lose weight raw diets can help but not nutritionally. Yes, some nutrients are lost to cooking but they were never available otherwise anyway.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
I always laugh when people get excited about raw diets. Cooking breaks down the plant cell walls that are indigestible fibre (cellulose). Only animals that have multiple stomachs or very extensive large intestines that use bacterial digestion to breach the cell wall and unlock the nutrients. Most carnivores and omnivores do not. If you want to lose weight raw diets can help but not nutritionally. Yes, some nutrients are lost to cooking but they were never available otherwise anyway.
This 100%. Blanching is a good way to store things in the freezer and probably helps.

I've wondered if blending helps make nutrients more available. Same with gutloading, the partially digested food should make it easier for the chameleon to digest?

All this makes me wonder though, why would nutrients that are so hard/impossible to get without cooking be that important to begin with?
 

JacksJill

Chameleon Enthusiast
My understanding was for humanoids chewing was the key. Early humanoids had stronger jaws and flatter teeth for grinding, as you suggest with blending, more like the modern gorillas and they spent more time at it. Gorillas also have larger abdomens for all the bulk they have to eat. They spend very little time standing erect. Once we began walking upright there wasn't as much room for those organs. Once we began cooking food and eating more meat (sorry vegans) that was when we began to advance as a species. We finally had the nutrition to support brain development. Now we have heads that are almost too large to pass the birth canal.
I'm sure some one here can it explain this in better detail than I can.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
@jamest0o0 said ..."All this makes me wonder though, why would nutrients that are so hard/impossible to get without cooking be that important to begin with?" ...I think our genetics have changed and certain genes/components required to instruct the body to break down these things we need has been turned off over time. I know this is true for some nutrients...like vitamin C.
 

JacksJill

Chameleon Enthusiast
Oh, one other thing for carnivores, in large carnivores one of the first things they eat is the prey animals organs and partially digested intestinal contents. This way carnivores can get the nutrition released by bacterial digestion without having to carry around the large digestive organs that would slow them in the hunt.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
Oh, one other thing for carnivores, in large carnivores one of the first things they eat is the prey animals organs and partially digested intestinal contents. This way carnivores can get the nutrition released by bacterial digestion without having to carry around the large digestive organs that would slow them in the hunt.
I've heard this, makes sense! Don't think I could bring myself to do that without a little hot sauce though...

What's your opinion on raw feeding cats/dogs?
 

Hashtag ChamLife

Avid Member
I was surprised to find out that cooking and processing help release the carotenoids, which are bound to the cell wall “matrix” of the vegetables...
https://www.berkeleywellness.com/healthy-eating/nutrition/article/are-cooked-carrots-better-raw
So I stumbled on some Rephasy "superPig" when I was making my bug burger today. With all the articles and info you been throwing around with carotenoids and such. I however wasn't able to determine its EXACT amounts. I pretty much figured why not...

As for the science experiment... I have an established roach colony and an established "clown" isopod mixed with spring tails [basically the build block for a bio active setup]. In the roaches I have sweet potatoes, kale and some carrots. Isopods have carrot and sweet potatoes. I added my bug burger/SuperPig mix to each container (I was just scraping out what wouldn't fit in my ice cube trays). I found that in the time it took me to return to the kitchen and put my stuff in the sink and return... they were both on top of the mix. So they preferred it to the fresh (uncooked) veg.

Thought that was interesting.... and I would like to hear what opinion you have on SuperPig (if any?).
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
So I stumbled on some Rephasy "superPig" when I was making my bug burger today. With all the articles and info you been throwing around with carotenoids and such. I however wasn't able to determine its EXACT amounts. I pretty much figured why not...

As for the science experiment... I have an established roach colony and an established "clown" isopod mixed with spring tails [basically the build block for a bio active setup]. In the roaches I have sweet potatoes, kale and some carrots. Isopods have carrot and sweet potatoes. I added my bug burger/SuperPig mix to each container (I was just scraping out what wouldn't fit in my ice cube trays). I found that in the time it took me to return to the kitchen and put my stuff in the sink and return... they were both on top of the mix. So they preferred it to the fresh (uncooked) veg.

Thought that was interesting.... and I would like to hear what opinion you have on SuperPig (if any?).
I have like 10 isopod species and they all prefer rotten/moldy/dead to anything fresh. I was thinking of making a post about this because I have noticed they don't often touch stuff until it starts to mold. More importantly I have noticed that isopods prefer protein rich foods whatever it may be. They also love cuttlebone.
 

JoXie411

Chameleon Enthusiast
I have like 10 isopod species and they all prefer rotten/moldy/dead to anything fresh. I was thinking of making a post about this because I have noticed they don't often touch stuff until it starts to mold. More importantly I have noticed that isopods prefer protein rich foods. They also love cuttlebone.
They also love a rotting hornworm and a Madagascar hissing roach :hungry: i love feeding my isopods but your correct I’ve notice they will go for the rotting food over the fresh food any day
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
They also love a rotting hornworm and a Madagascar hissing roach :hungry: i love feeding my isopods but your correct I’ve notice they will go for the rotting food over the fresh food any day
Something weirdly satisfying about being able to throw a dead feeder to something else that will enjoy eating it... I love seeing things finding a use and wasting is a huge pet peeve of mine.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
@jamest0o0 My cousin fed all her dogs over the years raw meat and they did well and lived to ripe old ages.

Another aunt gave her dogs a salad every day in addition to the regular meaty food...they also did well. I was kind of surprised with that.

Not surprised the Isopoda eat rotting things....something has to clean up the waste in the world. :)

@Hashtag ChamLife ...can't say anything about Super Pig or any of the other commercial feeds...I don't use them at all...not saying their bad...I just prefer fresh greens, veggies, etc.
 

Hashtag ChamLife

Avid Member
I have like 10 isopod species and they all prefer rotten/moldy/dead to anything fresh. I was thinking of making a post about this because I have noticed they don't often touch stuff until it starts to mold. More importantly I have noticed that isopods prefer protein rich foods whatever it may be. They also love cuttlebone.
Cuttlebone huh...? Got a few of those laying around from the bird.
10 species of isopods eh? Got anything "interesting"? I'm fascinated with isopods all of a sudden. I have dwarf whites, powder blue and oranges, and the clowns. I have to saw I'm really impressed with the clowns, though they don't seem to breed or grow very quick at all.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
Cuttlebone huh...? Got a few of those laying around from the bird.
10 species of isopods eh? Got anything "interesting"? I'm fascinated with isopods all of a sudden. I have dwarf whites, powder blue and oranges, and the clowns. I have to saw I'm really impressed with the clowns, though they don't seem to breed or grow very quick at all.
@JoXie411 hooked me up with some clowns and from what I've seen for a few weeks of them now, they grow at about the same rate as my zebras, which are very slow. My most interesting are probably the p hoffmannseggi and p ornatus. Both are breeding for me, but the ornatus are very fast for being so large. Hoffs are absolutely huge, I saw one in my bin that had to be close to 2". Then of course the giant canyons gotta get some respect for being my favorite CuC. They also make nice feeders since they reproduce so fast and are a decent size.

Yeah try adding in some cuttle bone, they love it.
 

Hashtag ChamLife

Avid Member
@JoXie411 hooked me up with some clowns and from what I've seen for a few weeks of them now, they grow at about the same rate as my zebras, which are very slow. My most interesting are probably the p hoffmannseggi and p ornatus. Both are breeding for me, but the ornatus are very fast for being so large. Hoffs are absolutely huge, I saw one in my bin that had to be close to 2". Then of course the giant canyons gotta get some respect for being my favorite CuC. They also make nice feeders since they reproduce so fast and are a decent size.

Yeah try adding in some cuttle bone, they love it.
I've been wanting some of those Ornatus.... they're hard to come by. Lots of cool patterns on those guys. I've used the giant canyons as well and they did an awesome job with my roaches. This go round I tried to get fancy with the orange and blues (may the best bug win?). I had 3 roach colonies started.. then couldn't find more roaches, then found an awesome new roach connection and need more isopods. The local market sucks here for bugs which is quite shocking... tropical climates and many native species. I hate buying them at full retail, I ended up paying almost $4/ea for my clowns... and ended up with only 8/10 when they got here.

I find myself just as into bugs [and gravitating towards plants] almost as much as the chams themselves.
 

JoXie411

Chameleon Enthusiast
I've been wanting some of those Ornatus.... they're hard to come by. Lots of cool patterns on those guys. I've used the giant canyons as well and they did an awesome job with my roaches. This go round I tried to get fancy with the orange and blues (may the best bug win?). I had 3 roach colonies started.. then couldn't find more roaches, then found an awesome new roach connection and need more isopods. The local market sucks here for bugs which is quite shocking... tropical climates and many native species. I hate buying them at full retail, I ended up paying almost $4/ea for my clowns... and ended up with only 8/10 when they got here.

I find myself just as into bugs [and gravitating towards plants] almost as much as the chams themselves.
Check out eBay that’s where I’ve been getting my isopods lately super cheep. I ended up paying $65 for 12 clowns, I even found a few clown babies the past few days. Isopods are definitely my favorite at the moment all the different colors patterens they come in. The morning wood gets the populating faster I noticed
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
@jamest0o0 said ..."All this makes me wonder though, why would nutrients that are so hard/impossible to get without cooking be that important to begin with?" ...I think our genetics have changed and certain genes/components required to instruct the body to break down these things we need has been turned off over time. I know this is true for some nutrients...like vitamin C.
Gotta remember that 99% of the plants we eat now were unedible back when courting meant dragging your girl home via the hair to the cave and he with the prettiest rock collection was king.

Oh you want some undomesticated lettuce, enjoy the 75% latex and thorns. An apple may kill you. An avocado only has 1/8" layer of green around the pit. A carrot is literally an indigestible root.
 

JacksJill

Chameleon Enthusiast
I've heard this, makes sense! Don't think I could bring myself to do that without a little hot sauce though...

What's your opinion on raw feeding cats/dogs?
I can barely choke down liver with cartelized onions so the rest of the offal is out for me. There isn't enough Tapatio in the whole world.
Raw diets make a little bit of sense for cats who are obligate carnivores like most chameleons. There are two factors, one is taurine, an amino acid that can be lost during cooking. Cats can't make taurine like you and I can't make vitamin C. Without it they develop heart problems. However most commercial diets have it added back in. Canned food usually has more than dry. The other factor is that they need to eat the whole animal for complete nutrition and the modern chicken is a lot bigger than what they would tackle in the wild and so are its bones.
The biggest down side to raw diets is the possibility of diseases and parasites. Disease wise you know about toxoplasmosis and salmonella for the cats. Sure cats and dogs are easy to deworm compared to chameleons but some of the worms they could get from raw food are horrifying. I assisted in surgery where we had to remove a hydatid cyst (don't look it up I'm warning you-seriously) from a dog. It was supposed to be a tapeworm in a sheep or something and ended up in the dog from raw meat it ate. Liver flukes are the other awful raw food parasite that dogs can get. That's from raw fish, salmon or trout I think. It can be lethal if not treated in time.
So cat's I might feed raw but dogs I would never. I'm sure some people do it and it's worked out fine so far but me, for my dogs, no, never.
PS. Dogs are not obligated carnivores as they can make some use of plants on their own. They aren't omnivores by any means but are closer than cats.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
I've been wanting some of those Ornatus.... they're hard to come by. Lots of cool patterns on those guys. I've used the giant canyons as well and they did an awesome job with my roaches. This go round I tried to get fancy with the orange and blues (may the best bug win?). I had 3 roach colonies started.. then couldn't find more roaches, then found an awesome new roach connection and need more isopods. The local market sucks here for bugs which is quite shocking... tropical climates and many native species. I hate buying them at full retail, I ended up paying almost $4/ea for my clowns... and ended up with only 8/10 when they got here.

I find myself just as into bugs [and gravitating towards plants] almost as much as the chams themselves.
Probably makes it hard in florida with how much the insects are regulated? Still, I was always jealous of the wildlife you Floridians have. PA is a plant/bug/amph/reptile's paradise in the summer and a cold mushy post apocalyptic nightmare in the winter lmao. It amazes me how temperate creatures survive.

The ornatus are a nice dry species and make good feeders too since they breed pretty fast.

I wasn't that interested in bugs, didn't mind, but didn't understand the fascination in inverts some had..... then I kept them for feeding, now I have like 50 colonies of roaches, isopods, katydids, snails, etc. Luckily I have a shed lol. It's become a hobby/small business of its own.
 
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