Tongue, aiming, and eating concerns

[Mark_C]

Hi folks, ran through a number of similar previous posts and can't seem to find anything that might help.
Hoping that posting this may lead to a few different perspectives and opinions based on my husbandry.
Filled out the standard form with as much detail as I could.

Current Problem - Aiming. Always shoots high and to the right. His eyes are focused on target and he is lined up, but the tongue fire is off.
This occurs with insects loose in enclosure, in the feeding bowl, or when fed by hand. He was fine for the first year. I was guessing he had a miss and hit the plexi or a plant and damaged his tongue muscles on drawback.
I’ve been feeding him via bamboo tongs, releasing the insect as soon as his tongue makes contact. This is working well, but getting very time consuming. This may become a concern if we go on vacation this year. Any advice appreciated.
Otherwise he is healthy, curious, mobile, colorful, and shedding regularly. No other signs of injury, MBD, gout, or dehydration.

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Panther, male, 18 months, came home between 2-3 months old
• 
  
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Not unless cage cleaning. He comes to my hand and hangs out on an indoor tree when I’m cleaning (fig tree, he does not eat from it as it is right next to the cage and in my line of sight.)
• 
  
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Primary - Home raised dubias
• Gutloaded daily with a mix of Fluker’s High Calcium Cricket Diet and Castaway Organics Insecta-Load
• Once weekly additional gutload with leafy greens, carrots, broccolli (eaten over 1-2 days)
• Secondary - Medium crickets bought from pet store 1x week
• Snack 1 - Superworm 1-2x per week
• Snack 2 - Medium hornworm once every week or two
• Additional feeding - Occasional waxworms, fly larvae, etc on the occasion I place online orders (rare, maybe 1x per month)
• 
  
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Daily - Fluker’s Calcium without D dusted on roaches
• Bi-weekly - Fluker’s Multi with Beta Carotene
• 
  
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Mist King - 7am (pre-lights) for 1min, 7:45 (15 mins post lights on) for 2 mins, 12pm for 2 mins, 4pm for 2 mins, 8pm for 2 mins (just before lights out), midnight 2 mins.
• Hand misting - If its a hot day I ramp up the Mist King and will hand mist if I see humidity falling too fast (then adjust the Mist King)
• Hydration - Seems well hydrated. I occasionally catch him drinking from leaves out of the corner of my eye if I pass the cage at the right time.
• 
  
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• Urates - White, approx 1/4 of waste
• Feces - dark brown, moist sheen, 3/4 of waste, very occasionally note a sperm plug
• Size - Seems about right in proportion to him and his intake, .75-1.5” in length
• 
  
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
• This was not a problem that progressed. It was a situation where on day 1 he was fine, and day 2 he was off. It has not progressed since it was initially noted. This is what led me to believe this is physical damage and not a nutritional or UV concern, but, as this is my first cham, I'm reaching out hoping there may be a nutritional component or similar that may be effective in treating.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Cage size - 2.5’ x 2.5’ x5’ home built
• Cage walls - solid back wall, plexi side walls, screen front
• Cage ceiling - screen
• Cage floor - eggcrate with drainage pan underneath
• 
  
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Unit - Reptisun 24” LED/UVB combo. Added an additional LED module and replaced the Reptisun bulb with Arcadia 6% (which is changed every 6 months or when UV drops below 3.0)
• UV - 3.5-4 at bask area via Solarmeter
• Schedule - Lights on at 7:30am, off at 7:30pm
• 
  
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Bulb - One 75w heat lamp mounted high
• Basking temp - 83-85˚F
• Ambient temp - 68-72˚F at mid cage height
• Night - 65-70˚F (as house thermostat)
• Measurement - 2 digital temp/humidity, 2 analog temp/humidity, and occasional check with temp gun to confirm other readings
• 
  
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Basking spot (day)- 45-50%
• Mid cage (day) - 60-65%
• Floor (plant base level (day)) - 75-80%
• Night (general) - 75-80%
• Measurement - 2 digital temp/humidity, 2 analog temp/humidity
• 
  
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Mix of live plants from the safe list provided me by the helpful folks in this forum 15 months back. I have never seen him eat a plant and have never found bite marks during any inspections.
• 
  
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - unused corner of living room, low traffic
• Fans/vents - there is a ceiling fan for the summer located about 20’ from his enclosure
• Top of cage height - Approx 7.5’
• 
  
• Location - Where are you geographically located?
• NJ (Shore region)

 

[CalamityCrow]

Hello!

It wouldn't be a bad idea to post images of your full cage setup and your cham as well.

The only thing I can see offhand that I'm curious about is the gutload you use for the food - I believe both formulas have quite a bit of D3 and Vitamin A in it - it's possible by gutloading your feeders with that in addition to the greens you may be ODing your cham on D3 and/or A. Often an overabundance of those particular nutrients can cause eye/aiming issues.

Also - I'd REALLY avoid using tongs to feed. I know it's been working for you so far but feeding with tongs comes with a high risk of tongue injury if you don't let go just at the right moment. There have been some stories of some pretty gnarly injuries due to tongs. I've found that if I just hold a bug by the back leg between my fingers, that works out great.

@MissSkittles , @Beman thoughts?

 

[Mark_C]

It wouldn't be a bad idea to post images of your full cage setup and your cham as well.

OK, here we go. He's happy as he got to get out for a bit*.
Wanted to get him from a few angles. Handling isn't our norm.

* When I say he's happy to get out for a bit I don't think it has to do with the enclosure. We have a large tree near our stairs that tops out near a sunlight and he loves basking up there. Occasionally in the summer I'll bring him over to it. As it gets darker he'll come to my hand and is anxious to get back in his cage. We don't normally do this in the winter, but if I put my hand in there I think he now associates it with a ride to the tree.

Will get rid of the tongs and go hand feeding from now on as both yourself and Kinyonga have mentioned the potential concerns. Thanks to both of you, glad I now know before anything drastic occurs.

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi. I would definitely improve the diet of your feeders - eliminate the Fluker’s high calcium diet completely and be mindful of which greens you are using. Some are higher in oxalates than others which binds to calcium. Dandelion, collards, mustard, turnip greens are all good choices. Kale, spinach are not good.
I would also change the D3/multivitamin to Repashy calcium plus LoD or ReptiVite with D3. Both have preformed vitamin A (for eye health) which is possibly better utilized than proformed (beta carotene etc).
Most definitely avoid tong feeding. I would say to invest in a feeding station so that your guy can take his time and his food won’t escape easily. I like the shooting gallery. https://www.rainbowmealworms.net/shooting-gallery-chameleon-feeder-1/ The only feeder that does not do well in it is bsfl - little buggers squirm their way to freedom within seconds.
Also, be careful when feeding hornworms. Their feet can be super sticky on most surfaces and your cham will shoot at it and it won’t release from whatever it’s on. I hand feed only for those to protect the little zapper tongues from injury.
I do have to suggest putting your guy on a bit of a diet. His casque is looking a bit puffy, which is a sign of being overweight.
I’m finding that some panthers are just more ‘friendly’ and willingly come to us for whatever their motivation is. My male has always been wanting to come out and sit on my hand and has even put himself in almost stuck positions trying to reach me. My little girl panther isn’t quite that wanting to be held, but almost. Just as I accept that my veileds ‘hate’ me, I accept that my panthers don’t.

 

[Mark_C]

Thanks much.

I was debating on the efficacy of the Fluker's line and will switch over to the Repashy line, ordering a complete turnover tonight.

I'll start gutloading feeders more on organic greens as recommended and kill the Fluker's.

Tong feeding is out as of today, the tongs have been moved to my modeling room paint booth. My fingers will eventually be flesh colored again.
Will hand feed for now.
Was thinking on ordering the shooting gallery but I should be able to print something similar easy enough with magnets to hold to the plexi.
Gives me something to do this week. If it fails, as they oft do, I'll order the gallery or something similar.

I've always hand fed the hornworms in fear of one being cemented down when he hits it, so no worry there.

I'll give it 2 weeks and see if there's any improvement with these changes and report back.

Again, thanks. I lurk a lot with the occasional pop-ups but am always appreciative of the advice, help, and support.

 

[Beman]

I Agree with everything that has been said... I think your multivitamin just does not have what he needs. I am betting it is a vitamin A issue, switch to repashy calcium plus LoD version and use it 2 times a month say the 1st and the 15th.

He is a bit on the obese side... You can see the excess fat in the cheeks and the casque. How many feeders is he getting now and how often?

 

[Mark_C]

Couple weeks in still no change, will keep with the regime.
Beman, he's eating approximately 2 medium dubias every 2 days or so.

 

[Beman]

Couple weeks in still no change, will keep with the regime.
Beman, he's eating approximately 2 medium dubias every 2 days or so.

Are you weighing him to monitor? You want a slow weight loss should be a few grams a week.

With the Repashy LOD you would not overdose if you add in and extra day or two. Might be a good idea to up using this once a week for the next month and see if there is a change in targeting.