Shedding

[Desiree]

Hi guys , I Need some advice . So for the last 2 sheds juice has had like left over shed on his under side of his tail and his little feet, I soaked him and it seemed to help but am I doing anything wrong or is there anything I can do to help
Juice is a panther chameleon 1-1/2 years old male

 

[Ruthless]

Can I ask what type of branches or vines are you using? It appears he has sores on the pads of his rear feet. Or is that just a bad pic?

 

[Ruthless]

We also need some info you can start by filling this out.
Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.



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Please Note:

1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
2. Photos can be very helpful.

 

[Desiree]

Can I ask what type of branches or vines are you using? It appears he has sores on the pads of his rear feet. Or is that just a bad pic?

Yes I notice that after I took the picture I have exoterra jungle vines with some artificial leaves

 

[The Wild One]

you shouldn't up your humidity or soak, chams are dry shedders and It will only make it stick worse. Also soaking him just stresses him out.

 

[Desiree]

We also need some info you can start by filling this out.
Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - male panther 11/2 years old had him since he was 4 months
• Handling - Take him out of his cage about 2 times a week for a few mins
• Feeding - He gets crickets , horn worms and on occasion meal worms we do gut load them with fresh fruits he eats about 5-7 crickets and one horn worm I feel like he’s eating less now
• Supplements - reptivite and we also use bee pollen(per the breeeder) he gets them dusted 2-3 times a week
• Watering - He has a dripped on pretty much all day and gets misted 3-4 times a day
• Fecal Description - Brown with some white

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Screen,
• Lighting - He has a uvb and basking I also have just a normal light because it tends to be dark in the room

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.



--------------



Please Note:

1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
2. Photos can be very helpful.

 

[Ruthless]

Yes I notice that after I took the picture I have exoterra jungle vines with some artificial leaves

Those types of vines can be hard on them. Imagine you climbing a rope that feels like sandpaper. Chams use there vines,branches,trees etc to get around. So with that being said I would change them out with some natural branches or something that is a bit smoother then those exo terra vines. And like what @The Wild One said they are dry shedders unlike other reptiles like snakes.

 

[cyberlocc]

you shouldn't up your humidity or soak, chams are dry shedders and It will only make it stick worse. Also soaking him just stresses him out.

Links to this? That is the exact opposite of anything I have ever seen on the subject.

 

[Ares05]

Okay there is alot wrong with this setup.


Your lightings is wrong. The coil uvb is useless and the red heat light isn't good for them either. The other light is your basking fixture looks like a normal basking bulb, you can keep that if this is the case. If not, grab a 60-70 watt household bulb (no colors, just white or warm) to get the basking temps.

You are going to want to get a tube fluorescent uvb bulb, such as the reptisun 5.0, or the Arcadia 6% (NO COIL UVBS!! ) . You didnt give dimensions, but you will want it to run the length of as much of the enclosure as possible. You will also need a fixture to hold the bulb. I think bulbs are always 2 inches shorter than the fixture, so for a 36'' fixture you would have a 34'' bulb (correct me if im wrong)

You need more branches. Personally, I would toss those dark (almost black) bendy branches and just go outside and collect some. Avoid anything with sap. Grab some of different widths (but dont get overly thin branches, they will break easily) and put them in the tub. Rinse with a bit of soap, then pour boiling water over them, then cold, then boiling, then cold, and dry. Make sure the branches aren't overly rough (taking the bark off would make them smoother, or sand them down a bit) as it looks like he has some scabs on his feet. You could also grab some bend-a-branches https://www.amazon.com/Fluker-Labs-...?keywords=bend-a-branch&qid=1579288139&sr=8-3 As they may be softer on his feet.

You also need more plants. Panthers aren't known to eat too much vegetation, at least not nearly as much as veileds, so a few fake plants are fine. But to keep up humidity (mainly at night) live plants help alot. Pothos and schefflera are great choices that are legitimately at every lowes or home depot. Just repot with topsoil, cover the soil with 1'' stones and rinse off the leaves with warm water very well and you are set.

Throw out the waterfall and the weird grassy looking stuff you have on the cage floor, along with that hammock thing (just put some branches 8-12 inches under his basking light) Bare bottom is much easier to clean in my opinion.

For supplements, I would just get repashy LoD calcium plus (MUST BE CALCIUM PLUS!!) and just dust every feeding. Bee pollen is also a great addition.

I would get a fecal if you have never done so before, and I would also bring him in aswell to get his feet looked at. They look like scabs to me, or are they just coloring?

 

[Desiree]

Links to this? That is the exact opposite of anything I have ever seen on the subject.

Yes please because I was told soaking it good for them

 

[Desiree]

Those types of vines can be hard on them. Imagine you climbing a rope that feels like sandpaper. Chams use there vines,branches,trees etc to get around. So with that being said I would change them out with some natural branches or something that is a bit smoother then those exo terra vines. And like what @The Wild One said they are dry shedders unlike other reptiles like snakes.

Okay there is alot wrong with this setup.


Your lightings is wrong. The coil uvb is useless and the red heat light isn't good for them either. The other light is your basking fixture looks like a normal basking bulb, you can keep that if this is the case. If not, grab a 60-70 watt household bulb (no colors, just white or warm) to get the basking temps.

You are going to want to get a tube fluorescent uvb bulb, such as the reptisun 5.0, or the Arcadia 6% (NO COIL UVBS!! ) . You didnt give dimensions, but you will want it to run the length of as much of the enclosure as possible. You will also need a fixture to hold the bulb. I think bulbs are always 2 inches shorter than the fixture, so for a 36'' fixture you would have a 34'' bulb (correct me if im wrong)

You need more branches. Personally, I would toss those dark (almost black) bendy branches and just go outside and collect some. Avoid anything with sap. Grab some of different widths (but dont get overly thin branches, they will break easily) and put them in the tub. Rinse with a bit of soap, then pour boiling water over them, then cold, then boiling, then cold, and dry. Make sure the branches aren't overly rough (taking the bark off would make them smoother, or sand them down a bit) as it looks like he has some scabs on his feet. You could also grab some bend-a-branches https://www.amazon.com/Fluker-Labs-...?keywords=bend-a-branch&qid=1579288139&sr=8-3 As they may be softer on his feet.

You also need more plants. Panthers aren't known to eat too much vegetation, at least not nearly as much as veileds, so a few fake plants are fine. But to keep up humidity (mainly at night) live plants help alot. Pothos and schefflera are great choices that are legitimately at every lowes or home depot. Just repot with topsoil, cover the soil with 1'' stones and rinse off the leaves with warm water very well and you are set.

Throw out the waterfall and the weird grassy looking stuff you have on the cage floor, along with that hammock thing (just put some branches 8-12 inches under his basking light) Bare bottom is much easier to clean in my opinion.

For supplements, I would just get repashy LoD calcium plus (MUST BE CALCIUM PLUS!!) and just dust every feeding. Bee pollen is also a great addition.

I would get a fecal if you have never done so before, and I would also bring him in aswell to get his feet looked at. They look like scabs to me, or are they just coloring?

Okay thank you I will have to change everything and if it’s okay consult with you after
I tested his fecal 2 months ago came back negative

it does look like scabs

 

[cyberlocc]

So I missed the cage, that Ares grabbed, I just saw the shed part.

You should heed everything they said, and let me add some branch stuff.

Branches do not use Evergreens, ESPECIALLY Pine, Cedar, ECT. Use Hardwood, like Oak, Maple, Apple, ect. They are more resistant to water, and will last longer.

Do not remove the bark, Chameleons use the bark to help grip, and it makes the branch be less susceptible to staying wet, which can cause feet infections as well as the branch rotting. Oak, Maple and Apple branches bark will all be fine to leave.

You will need a 36" UVB flo tube bulb (could be advertised as 34) those do exist I believe in the "reptisun" brand, but are rarer to see, so Online is likely your best bet so I would just go for Arcadia.

 

[GoodKarma19]

Hi there! I'm not a medical professional, but that looks a whole lot like pressure sores and scabbing, possibly caused by a lack of choice in the diameter and texture of perches or even the vines retaining moisture. I've found that my female panther actively avoids the "jungle vines", and much prefers natural branches! I'd suggest as a start to try different perches, possibly a combination of natural wood branches and foam vines such as Flukers, which are nicer on the feet.

Re: shedding, here's a brief excerpt from Bill Strand's Chameleon Academy explaining the process of dry shedding: "To shed, the entire skin surface is separated from the new skin underneath by a fluid which evaporates and leaves the old skin to crack off and blow away (or be rubbed off). The nature of chameleons shedding means that it is important not to increase humidity as many advise. Increasing humidity will make it more difficult to shed because the chameleon relies on the evaporation to help the skin disengage."

Issues shedding are often related to husbandry. Follow @Ares05 advice, and you should see this resolve!

 

[cyberlocc]

"To shed, the entire skin surface is separated from the new skin underneath by a fluid which evaporates and leaves the old skin to crack off and blow away (or be rubbed off). The nature of chameleons shedding means that it is important not to increase humidity as many advise. Increasing humidity will make it more difficult to shed because the chameleon relies on the evaporation to help the skin disengage."

Hmm good read, read the whole thing.

I wonder how they get on in the wild, in that case. Very Neat.

It is also in direct contradiction of this however.

https://www.madcham.de/en/haeutungsprobleme/

No offense to Bill, but I would personally like to look more into this. Bill is a great breeder, and does the podcast ect. However Madcham are biologists and Vets, that got their degrees on Chameleon Thesis's and reside (some of them) in Madagascar.

To be fair, I question alot of our thoughts on humidity. As what we are told and care sheets present, are not the conditions of Madagascar AT ALL. We all say and the care sheets as well, that High Heat + High Humidity creates RIs, however the most humid part of the year, is also the hottest. Humidity isnt just 100% at night during the wet season its 100% almost 24/7. Dont take my word for, we are in the Wet Season time right now. google Ambilobe Current Weather, and see for yourself .

To be clear, thats not to say that High Temps and Humidity in Captivity dont cause RIs, AT ALL, there is more to that then just humidity and temps. Just stating how it is there, in the wild.


@ferretinmyshoes any comment on which of these is correct in your opinion?

 

[triocerotops]

Hi!
As @GoodKarma19 said, chameleons are dry shedders (which many keepers aren't aware of it seems?), and increasing humidity will only make shedding more difficult for them. In cases of stuck shed, 'shedding aid' can be used and has worked well for many keepers. I strongly suggest making the changes @Ares05 said, especially the lighting. As for his feet, they look very similar to the pressure sores a rescue panther I had came to me with. The good news is they look to have scabbed over and should heal on their own, as long as the vines (and probably that netting) is removed and branches are added.
Good luck

 

[cyberlocc]

Hi!
As @GoodKarma19 said, chameleons are dry shedders (which many keepers aren't aware of it seems?), and increasing humidity will only make shedding more difficult for them. In cases of stuck shed, 'shedding aid' can be used and has worked well for many keepers. I strongly suggest making the changes @Ares05 said, especially the lighting. As for his feet, they look very similar to the pressure sores a rescue panther I had came to me with. The good news is they look to have scabbed over and should heal on their own, as long as the vines (and probably that netting) is removed and branches are added.
Good luck

Well it would appear the jury is out on that to be fair.

I read Bills thoughts, and they are interesting and make sense.

However then we have Actual on Site in Madagascar Team of researchers saying the complete opposite. Nevermind the fact that Madgascar Humidity is at a constant high during the wet Season, and not much lower during the "Dry Season".

Not saying that either one of them is wrong, just that they are very condradictive, so more info from more sources is going to be needed. For me personally to agree one way or the other.

Im sorry, but I do not blindly follow anyone. Not Knocking Bill or his Knowledge one bit. Just that I have a very suspicious mind, and need to see hard data and science before believing anything. When there is 2 respected authorities on a Subject in disagreement, I need more.

Which is why I asked for sources the first time it was posted .

 

[triocerotops]

Interesting! It's pretty much treated as common knowledge over here (UK)

 

[cyberlocc]

Interesting! It's pretty much treated as common knowledge over here (UK)

Common knowledge does not make it fact.

It used to be "Common Knowledge" that the world was Flat .

Alot differs between UK and US husbandry as well. Most the UK keepers I know do not use Screen Cages. That's a massive difference to the US right there. It's also what Madcham is stating as an issue that leads to the shedding problem to begin with.

If the Average UK keeper has 70% humidity at all times, and the Average US has 30% then the outcome of how to deal with shed issues has just drastically been altered, as the underlying issue had.

If your chameleon has a daytime humidity of 70%, then yes the issue is likely temp related, not humidity. However a US keeper with 20% humidity all day, has a shed issue the reason could be different and thus the treatment. Madcham mentions both Heat and Humidity as being sources to the issue.

 

[triocerotops]

Common knowledge does not make it fact.

It used to be "Commons Knowledge" that the world was Flat .

By common knowledge, I mean common knowledge among experienced keepers and my colleagues (I'm a research herpetologist). It's also worth mentioning the gradient of humidity within a relatively small area (higher ambient humidity lower to the ground and within trees/shrubs) so wild F. pardalis have some level of control over the humidity they're exposed to.

Humidity is definitely not the only factor in successful shedding, but the often-given general reptile advice of 'shedding = increase humidity' does not apply, and will likely be more harmful than anything. If all aspects of husbandry are correct, there should be no need to change anything during the shedding process.

 

[GoodKarma19]

It is also in direct contradiction of this however.

I'm not seeing the contradiction that you are, but I'm also skimming right now between errands. None of those in that screen cap are contradictions, to my eyes!

I agree with being skeptical. Re: not increasing humidity, I've personally (and I could, of course, be wrong) taken it to mean "dont spray them more than you usually would/break from routine". High humidity wouldn't necessarily cause many issues with the shedding process (thus the continued recommendation of high overnight humidity), but directly spraying the animal with water could cause the layers of the shed to essentially "collapse" back down on itself, and have to evaporate again to loosen. Thus the designation of a "dry shedder" - they don't need water contact to loosen shed.

My thoughts, anyway! Could be way off the mark.