Shedding

[cyberlocc]

By common knowledge, I mean common knowledge among experienced keepers and my colleagues (I'm a research herpetologist).

Well thats fine and good, but you would understand this is the internet, everyone is a Scientist, or an Engineer when it suits their argument. I do not know you, nor know that to be a fact. Not saying that it isnt, just that its all to common in this hobby and others for that to be embellished.

If you have some Peer Reviewed articles on the subject, by yourself or anyone I would love to read them however . With some blind studys and the likes would be even better .

It's also worth mentioning the gradient of humidity within a relatively small area (higher ambient humidity lower to the ground and within trees/shrubs) so wild F. pardalis have some level of control over the humidity they're exposed to.

That is very true, however my statement involving humidity was Open Air readings in the City of Ambilobe (thats all we have readily available on a day to day, if you have something concrete from F. paradlis, I would love to see that as well). So if its 87% humidity during mid day, in open air in the city around Zero Trees, then as you said the gradient would only be increasing, not decreasing surely.

Again I am not trying to say you nor Bill is incorrect, nor am I saying that I will accept that as fact, either way without seeing more on the subject. I wasn't until today aware that their is a divide on this. Now I am Curious .

I'm not seeing the contradiction that you are, but I'm also skimming right now between errands. None of those in that screen cap are contradictions, to my eyes!

I agree with being skeptical. Re: not increasing humidity, I've personally (and I could, of course, be wrong) taken it to mean "dont spray them more than you usually would/break from routine". High humidity wouldn't necessarily cause many issues with the shedding process (thus the continued recommendation of high overnight humidity), but directly spraying the animal with water could cause the layers of the shed to essentially "collapse" back down on itself, and have to evaporate again to loosen. Thus the designation of a "dry shedder" - they don't need water contact to loosen shed.

My thoughts, anyway! Could be way off the mark.

My apologies, it was not in that particular screen cap. Its alot of Info to Cap lol.

https://www.madcham.de/en/haeutungsprobleme/

And to emphasize one more time, as I got attacked for this recently lol. I am not trying to bash Bill, or put aside his knowledge or his experience, or Anyone's for that matter. Simply stating that 2 sources that I feel are knowledgeable, and experienced are stating vastly different things.

I do not feel that Bill would post info he was not confident in, and fully trust him to not do so. However I also have Faith in the Peer reviewed Data, produced by Madcham, especially as it is Peer reviewed and carried out by a Team made up of Biologists, Vets, and a Touring company with a passion in Chameleons, and the Fact they live on site in Madagascar helps their case. Visiting their, is something I would love to do, and a few of our leading experts have done, and that is great, but these Folks live there.

Obviously someones data is being misunderstood or is incorrect or outdated, for some reason or another. Whose I do not know. However I would very much like to.

 

[triocerotops]

Well thats fine and good, but you would understand this is the internet, everyone is a Scientist, or an Engineer when it suits their argument. I do not know you, nor know that to be a fact. Not saying that it isnt, just that its all to common in this hobby and others for that to be embellished.

Gotta agree with you there, I've had some interesting conversations with several 'herpetologists' online; one even tried to tell me that Varanus (the focus of most of my MSc) were ovoviviparous...

I also was unaware this was a topic of debate and I'll definitely be looking in to it some more. My colleague at Bangor University has been studying F. pardalis for 14 years so I'll be sure to consult her on this. My recent focus has been on Trioceros sp. and I'm currently planning a research trip to Kenya, so I'd be very interested to add some field work on shedding behaviours to the agenda (possibly linking movement between areas of higher and lower humidity with shedding?).

 

[cyberlocc]

Gotta agree with you there, I've had some interesting conversations with several 'herpetologists' online; one even tried to tell me that Varanus (the focus of most of my MSc) were ovoviviparous...

I also was unaware this was a topic of debate and I'll definitely be looking in to it some more. My colleague at Bangor University has been studying F. pardalis for 14 years so I'll be sure to consult her on this. My recent focus has been on Trioceros sp. and I'm currently planning a research trip to Kenya, so I'd be very interested to add some field work on shedding behaviours to the agenda (possibly linking movement between areas of higher and lower humidity with shedding?).

That would be Amazing .

I also very much agree with the Humidity gradients, either way, I try to account for that in my own setups as well. Using Bioactive Vivs, and different Plant Species to adjust humidity as the cage rises. Choice for the Chameleon is something we cannot ignore.

I have actually been contemplating and likely will be soon, tearing down my 4x2x4 Panther Viv, for a new 4x2x6/7 to allow more room for those gradients . Erring on the side of lower than higher, is likely better when it comes to small cages, that cant create those gradients as well. I have always assumed that is why that was touted in the states. Maybe not optimal, but less difficult, or less dangerous as it were.

We have problems getting them to buy the correct lights, asking them to build proper gradients and a Slice of Nature, for the average keeper would be Futile.

I really wish we had better humidity data in the areas that F. paradlis reside, Madhcam has the Temp and rainfall data stretching far back, but more info on the micro gradients would be great. Relying on City data, is not my most preferred method, but its all I can source with any level of reliability.

 

[GoodKarma19]

My apologies, it was not in that particular screen cap. Its alot of Info to Cap lol.

That makes more sense, Haha! Yes, increasing humidity (ideally at night, when it's cooler) will help with shedding of any sort. Increased spraying increases humidity, so that also makes sense. However, directly spraying your cham wouldn't do a whole lot, and could in fact make it stick more (collapsing layers, evaporation, etc etc) from how I understand it. Again, could be wrong! The Madcham wording is somewhat vague - nowhere does it say to actually spray the animal! Directly showering/"bathing" the animal wouldn't be especially helpful, but i agree that increasing relative humidity could... though perhaps not during the day due to the whole warm + humid + low air flow = good environment for RI equation.

Using a Q-tip can help if the shed is stuck (collapsed in on itself and adhered to the new skin), as once moistened the adhered shed can be coaxed off. Shed generally shouldn't get stuck in the first place if the parameters were correct (scarred tissue and such being outlying cases).

But I have nothing in particular to offer in terms of papers or citations. I can see if I can get my hands on some of the reptile books at work, but as they mostly pertain to surgery I'm not sure what (if anything!) I'd be able to come up with. They're also, admittedly, mostly older texts - I think the newest ones are from 2012 or so.

 

[triocerotops]

Choice for the Chameleon is something we cannot ignore.

I completely agree, this seems to be the key factor in all successful chameleon keeping regardless of method. It's a careful balance between habitat recreation and practicality, with (in my opinion) too many people falling on the side of practicality. A little piece of my soul dies when I see fake plants in an enclosure
Just referring back to a point you made earlier regarding UK keepers - I'm strongly in the screen cages camp. In my experience, wood and glass vivs need some serious modification to be suitable and get insanely expensive when you start needing larger sizes. I'm sure it's done with success by many, but I honestly see no reason for it aside from reptile shops being able to make more money from inexperienced keepers (you should see some of the 'starter kits' they sell over here ), even in our climate.

 

[cyberlocc]

That makes more sense, Haha! Yes, increasing humidity (ideally at night, when it's cooler) will help with shedding of any sort. Increased spraying increases humidity, so that also makes sense. However, directly spraying your cham wouldn't do a whole lot, and could in fact make it stick more (collapsing layers, evaporation, etc etc) from how I understand it. Again, could be wrong! The Madcham wording is somewhat vague - nowhere does it say to actually spray the animal! Directly showering/"bathing" the animal wouldn't be especially helpful, but i agree that increasing relative humidity could... though perhaps not during the day due to the whole warm + humid + low air flow = good environment for RI equation.

Using a Q-tip can help if the shed is stuck (collapsed in on itself and adhered to the new skin), as once moistened the adhered shed can be coaxed off. Shed generally shouldn't get stuck in the first place if the parameters were correct (scarred tissue and such being outlying cases).

But I have nothing in particular to offer in terms of papers or citations. I can see if I can get my hands on some of the reptile books at work, but as they mostly pertain to surgery I'm not sure what (if anything!) I'd be able to come up with. They're also, admittedly, mostly older texts - I think the newest ones are from 2012 or so.

Agreed, I didn't mean spraying the cham, or giving it a "Bath" more so just a raise of humidity.

I can also see as I said triocerotops statement about that not being common in UK. I am not sure what kind of caging he uses but as I said most of the UK keepers I know have mostly enclosed cages. If he would care to shed some light. It seems the Forex Builds, are very common over the pond. Where maybe the door is screen, or a decent size screen vent if it isnt, thats the same way my Vivarium is structured.

However with a lot of US folks, running their heaters and ACs drying their house, and then using a fully screened Viv, they are sitting at very low humidity.

To a UK keeper, I would defiantly say that sitting on 60-70% raising humidity would not aid in shedding, and may hinder it. However to a US keeper that isnt fogging at night, and has 10-20% daytime humidity, rising that would maybe help with the shedding. Bills post is likely basing off that nighttime raise, which is why he said raising it wont help, and so in that context he is correct, but when the statement is removed from the context, it appears to be contradictory.

Like Jacksjill said the other day, its as much as an Art as a Science. Changing the Parameters of the day to day, will surely affect the parameters of issue management.

Oh and Super Sorry OP, didn't mean to Hijack your thread.

 

[GoodKarma19]

Agreed, I didn't mean spraying the cham, or giving it a "Bath" more so just a raise of humidity.

I can also see as I said triocerotops statement about that not being common in UK. I am not sure what kind of caging he uses but as I said most of the UK keepers I know have mostly enclosed cages. If he would care to shed some light. It seems the Forex Builds, are very common over the pond. Where maybe the door is screen, or a decent size screen vent if it isnt, thats the same way my Vivarium is structured.

However with a lot of US folks, running their heaters and ACs drying their house, and then using a fully screened Viv, they are sitting at very low humidity.

To a UK keeper, I would defiantly say that sitting on 60-70% raising humidity would not aid in shedding, and may hinder it. However to a US keeper that isnt fogging at night, and has 10-20% daytime humidity, rising that would maybe help with the shedding. Bills post is likely basing off that nighttime raise, which is why he said raising it wont help, and so in that context he is correct, but when the statement is removed from the context, it appears to be contradictory.

Like Jacksjill said the other day, its as much as an Art as a Science. Changing the Parameters of the day to day, will surely affect the parameters of issue management.

Oh and Super Sorry OP, didn't mean to Hijack your thread.

It's definitely not one size fits all, for sure!! A lot of it depends on your location and cage type. I figured you didnt mean directly spraying the cham, but some newer keepers take it as such so I figured I'd clarify for their sake.

And lol oops! Oh well. It's technically relevant info, so not entirely a hijack!

 

[triocerotops]

I can also see as I said@ triocerotops statement about that not being common in UK. I am not sure what kind of caging he uses but as I said most of the UK keepers I know have mostly enclosed cages. If he would care to shed some light. It seems the Forex Builds, are very common over the pond. Where maybe the door is screen, or a decent size screen vent if it isnt, thats the same way my Vivarium is structured.

I've only ever used screen cages (ReptiBreeze and my own builds), both for my own animals and those at the University. I typically cover the back and half of each side with a clear shower curtain or corex (corrugated plastic), which is mainly to stop water from soaking the wall behind and to create a visual barrier between enclosures. This has always retained heat and humidity well enough and negates any issues with stagnant air.

I'm also sorry OP, I feel partly responsible for this hijack.

 

[cyberlocc]

It's definitely not one size fits all, for sure!! A lot of it depends on your location and cage type. I figured you didnt mean directly spraying the cham, but some newer keepers take it as such so I figured I'd clarify for their sake.

And lol oops! Oh well. It's technically relevant info, so not entirely a hijack!

I will say that I can usually predict a shed, because my Panther seems to spray himself, not only before a shed but usually before a shed. With the misters are going off a day or 2 before a shed, he walk toward them, and let them spray him fully down the entire duration. This could be a personality thing, of that I am not sure, but he defiantly enjoys being sprayed by mist sometimes and usually does before a shed.

This is again though, a choice thing. I am not forcing him down and spraying him with a mister, its a choice he is making for whatever reason when he does it, that I dont know. Because my cage is enclosed, he has plenty of water from leaves, after the morning mist (before lights on) and that lasts for a few hours, and then he has it again, after the afternoon mist. So he isnt dehydrated, and he is not drinking the water, so IDK why sitting under the mister, but he does do it. I figure before a shed thats why, but he does it other times as well.