Seeing a lot of locales advertised online that look like another locale

[jaglon53]

Im just curious if anyone else has an opinion or has seen a cham somewhere being called something its not ie; Ambanja but really an Ambilobe vice versa or a cham that looks like a mix of two locales but advertised as one specific. How can we be sure that a locale is a locale. They get shipped in boxes from someone in madagascar saying they collected them from that specific region. One thing females look so much alike. Maybe its me but ive seen a lot of chams on the internet that look like a mix of a few things. MAYBE IM JUST CRAZY ???!!!~ Anyway wanted other thoughts and opinions. Thanks everyone

 

[Warrix642]

No one really knows but just try to buy from reputable breeders. There are plenty in the classifieds.

Dustin

 

[SpinyFranky]

Im just curious if anyone else has an opinion or has seen a cham somewhere being called something its not ie; Ambanja but really an Ambilobe vice versa or a cham that looks like a mix of two locales but advertised as one specific. How can we be sure that a locale is a locale. They get shipped in boxes from someone in madagascar saying they collected them from that specific region. One thing females look so much alike. Maybe its me but ive seen a lot of chams on the internet that look like a mix of a few things. MAYBE IM JUST CRAZY ???!!!~ Anyway wanted other thoughts and opinions. Thanks everyone

ahhhh the great mystery

What uve seen on the internet, never take at face value.

Yes chams have been mixes and sold as pure breds, and yes collectors mistake WCs for other locales all the time.

There was this big issue going around with the Nosy Be's years ago.

People were selling "Nosy Be" babies that grew up to have oranges and greens and yellows in them... when a real Nosy Be is supposed to be entirely blue.

so of course people feel cheated and such, so out comes the "true blue Nosy Be". Its still a Nosy Be, just with a promise that its only Nosy Be. Of course this animal is now much more expensive then it purchased from someone who just called it a plain old Nosy Be.

There are also members on these forums, of which I have nothing against, but they believe in and endorse the captive mixing of locales, which I do not.
Not to say that the mixing does not produce some beautiful creatures, but I just think that it should be kept pure for future generations to enjoy. I want my children to see a nutural sambava as in the same kind of sambava I purchased as my own when I first did, not some genetic mix that was forced by captive keepers.

But to keep it clear, I have no problems with those that mix the locales, except if they try to pass it off as a pure bred, then we have a problem.

As for the issue, if your searching for a pure bred animal, start with a reputable breeder. Ask to see pictures of the sire and dam, as well as older siblings of the animal you are to purchase.

 

[Olimpia]

Yes, and then there is so much natural variation within a locale as well, it only makes things all the more tricky. One ambanja might not look anything like another, but they are the same locale, or one ambilobe from the next. And with the females, of course there is no way to tell.

The only thing you can do is be careful who you buy from. While I'm not against crosses, I do also have a problem with them being sold off as a pure locale. So all you can do is go to breeders with an excellent reputation (like the sponsors here) and get a cham from them.

 

[Kent67]

People were selling "Nosy Be" babies that grew up to have oranges and greens and yellows in them... when a real Nosy Be is supposed to be entirely blue.

Solid blue Nosy Be's are an anomaly within the population on that island. There are actually more wild, solid green panthers on Nosy Be than solid blue ones. As for the oranges and yellows:http://www.pantherchameleon.de/?q=node/50/

 

[Julirs]

Regardless of whether or not one endorses breeding of mixed locales, it is still a HUGE problem for just this reason. There are still far more inexperienced people out there breeding and selling than experienced, so there are far more non-pure locales being sold and traded between these people then I think anyone realizes.

Case in point-out of my accidental breeding of NosyXAmbilobe, I have one that I could easily pass off as pure Nosy, especially after this last shed. But the siblings prove he is not pure.
And to further elaorate on this over the next few years, I will breed the 2 impure females I have held back, one to a known pure Nosy, and one to an Ambilobe. I will also breed Evil (assummed pure WC Nosy) to a known pure female Nosy.

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

F1 and F2 don't match

Solid blue Nosy Be's are an anomaly within the population on that island. There are actually more wild, solid green panthers on Nosy Be than solid blue ones. As for the oranges and yellows:http://www.pantherchameleon.de/?q=node/50/

Thanks Kent I was just going to point this out.

The concept of Nosey Be is determined by the feedback loop in the breeding market. The breeders locals have a fuzzy connection to what is in the wild.
Breeders have to breed to the market demands and right now that is dictated by color. If something has color to it... there's a strong motivation to breed it. If they can make money at it.. they'll do it again. (and again) Respectable breeders will label these as crosses. But I suspect it wasn't always that way.


re: Nosey Be's
One breeder got really lucky with an imported female and a male that had the blue traits over a decade ago. They crossed them with a high percentage coming out blue(ish). That formed the basis of their breeding business years ago. (as they related the story to me)

As as they went to the shows, sold the hatchlings
It formed the concept that only Nosey Be's are blue (that's what people saw after all)
There's all these other color locals out there and you don't need to breed for overlap that won't sell.

The bottom line is that, as these animals are selectively bred they'll move further away from the representation of their wild locals.


This brings up the next issue,

There's lots of confusion going on ranging from honest mistakes, shoddy export/importation to really poor breeding from some lax hobbyist that just wants to get rid of the dozen hungry mouths for a quick buck.

For example:
Years ago, Females getting ready for export, get thrown into a bin with lots of other males from "somewhere" and get knocked up, exported, lay and hatch "rainbow" or whatever. That female is "contaminated" for two cycles until she can be bred with a "known" male. IF not, the only way to determine her genes is to breed her and look at the f1 offspring when they start to express and then evaluate, speculate and hope you get it right. On the positive side, some might have though she got bred in the wild.... she might have? Who knows?

If they're lucky those F1's can be raised till they express and perhaps included into the program.
bottom line a female was obtained and perhaps held for 2 years before her genes were reasonably determined..
then bred for her final year.
from my conversations.. that happened all the time in the earlier years.
even then they made major errors - as they learned more about the panther species.

So, What happens to all those earlier random mixed chameleons?
Here's a mix of what I've been told, led to believe and surmised over the years.

I'm fairly sure that eople wanted to recover "something" for all their time and effort.
the animals we're viable but not what could always be sold under their "brand"
Whole clutches went to some wholesaler via a 3rd party,
Those got mixed with other clutches that went to some petstore or whatever.

hybrid locals get labeled under "best guess" or just under "blue bar / red bar/ rainbow, green panther"
It was understood that most would die off in inexperienced hands so "no real harm" by the breeders
I don't think the pet stores care at all.... they just want to make a sale.
They could do that as long as the customers allowed for it to happen.

The animals that survived tended to get "rebred" and so they polluted the gene pool.
Any local information being based upon the appearance of the f1 generation by some store employee's "guess" or whatever.
Mixed hybrids don't breed true but since the locals weren't really worked out... people got away with it (and still do)
Ever wonder why you can buy a $120 panther at a petstore.
that and small time hobby breeding is why.
if people demanded only clean line locals the situation would be different.

Other instances range from breeders buying
from past customers hatchlings and pass them off as their own
(who knows how reliable that is..)
To just downright fraud.

It goes on and on

Your best bet is to buy from a reliable breeder that has worked out their lines from "true to type" linage of a few generations. Or purchased their stock directly from proven lines. Yes, they're more expensive, but it's worth it in both the long and short run if you want really nice animals and gene pools(imo).