Retained or breed?

[Jerm]

Just curious, who prefers to breed their F. pardalis (or other species that has the capabilities of laying retained clutches) before every clutch, and who allows 1 or 2 retained clutches before breeding again? I personally allow 1 retained clutch so I allowing breeding every other laying. My reason is that I have had more fertile eggs in retained clutches than in normal breeding clutches.

 

[rnara002]

This is new to me. So after a second clutch after the first mating you breed the female again? Do you have a specific timing after the second clutch ? Please explain.

 

[rnara002]

I have a female that dropped her first clutch after mating. Its been about 3 weeks. I would like to know your method and try applying it to her.

 

[Jerm]

This is new to me. So after a second clutch after the first mating you breed the female again? Do you have a specific timing after the second clutch ? Please explain.

In F. pardalis a female has the capability to retain sperm and can fertilize a second, third and possibly more clutches without additional breeding. This is known as a retained clutch. This ability is found in other species of chams as well. I actually have more fertilized eggs in a first retained clutch than in a clutch where a breeding took place. The fertility rate of the second retained clutch decreases from my experience. Specific timing, no. The shortest period that I have witnessed between clutches is around 45 days. It all depends on the female, they can be different. Also temperature can play a role. Higher temps can make a female produce eggs faster. If you want to breed her you have to wait for receptive coloration and then hope that she in fact is receptive. You will only know if you try and introduce a male to her. I have witnessed retaining in R. brevicaudatus also.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I would never breed my females that often. But mine are pets, not commercial machines.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

I breed my females twice to maximize fertile eggs then the third clutch is retained. I usually at that point give them a break and breed them again when it is time.

so it would go, Breed, lay, breed, lay, no breed , lay. Pretty much gives me three completly fertile clutches.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

I would never breed my females that often. But mine are pets, not commercial machines.

They are going to lay anyway so I am a little confused with this statement. Not sure why they would be considered commercial machines. Is it because the eggs are fertile vs infertile.

 

[Jerm]

I would never breed my females that often. But mine are pets, not commercial machines.

Are you talking about panther chameleons? I don't breed mine that often either. You don't have to breed them for them to lay eggs. I am actually working on a project to get my females to lay less eggs to get them to live longer. They are my pets, and each have names, and if you are suggesting that I treat them as commercial machines you should find out a little more about me before you start judging. I simply stated that I had a female in the past that layed her second clutch of eggs in 45 days from the first, which I had no control over when she is going to lay her eggs. The temps here in Florida are a little too warm and it makes them produce faster which I did not know 6 years ago when I started breeding panthers.

 

[Jerm]

I breed my females twice to maximize fertile eggs then the third clutch is retained. I usually at that point give them a break and breed them again when it is time.

so it would go, Breed, lay, breed, lay, no breed , lay. Pretty much gives me three completly fertile clutches.

Thank you. This is why I started this post, to see what other people are doing. Do you keep records of how many days between clutches? Every female that I have is different.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

Are you talking about panther chameleons? I don't breed mine that often either. You don't have to breed them for them to lay eggs. I am actually working on a project to get my females to lay less eggs to get them to live longer. They are my pets, and each have names, and if you are suggesting that I treat them as commercial machines you should find out a little more about me before you start judging. I simply stated that I had a female in the past that layed her second clutch of eggs in 45 days from the first, which I had no control over when she is going to lay her eggs. The temps here in Florida are a little too warm and it makes them produce faster which I did not know 6 years ago when I started breeding panthers.

I have had a female produce a second clutch in just about the same time frame. I almost made the mistake of not having a laying bin in the cage.

The temps had nothing to do with it. This girl is one of 6 females kept at my house. They temps are nice and cool but this one female produces no matter what and huge clutches (40+). All others seem to be more in line with the norm.

She went from eating 4-5 feeders every other day to 2-3 , now she gets 2-3 three days a week. Her last clutch was 52 eggs on cool temps and 2-3 feeders three times a week. Nothing I do slows her down.

Jerm , I am very interested in what you find with your project. I have been trying to slow this girl down with minimal success.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

Thank you. This is why I started this post, to see what other people are doing. Do you keep records of how many days between clutches? Every female that I have is different.

I do keep records. Tonight when I get home I will get the numbers and send you a PM. Most of my females seem to be further apart. This one female is out of wack somehow.

 

[Jerm]

That is interesting, the female of mine that would lay at 45 days also had large clutches. She laid 35 her very first clutch, where I normally see 10 or 15 for the first clutch. I haven't had a clutch into the 50s yet but she was throwing around 45 or more at a time. She lived 4 1/2 years though which good for the amount of eggs that she was producing. My others average mid to upper 30s in their clutches so far. I have reduced feeding which I feel like is controlling some females, but others it doesn't matter. I keep mine cool these days, but I am only currently breeding one female ambilobe. She is getting ready to lay her second which is retained so I will see how long she goes.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

That is interesting, the female of mine that would lay at 45 days also had large clutches. She laid 35 her very first clutch, where I normally see 10 or 15 for the first clutch. I haven't had a clutch into the 50s yet but she was throwing around 45 or more at a time. She lived 4 1/2 years though which good for the amount of eggs that she was producing. My others average mid to upper 30s in their clutches so far. I have reduced feeding which I feel like is controlling some females, but others it doesn't matter. I keep mine cool these days, but I am only currently breeding one female ambilobe. She is getting ready to lay her second which is retained so I will see how long she goes.

Very interesting, awesome information. I have been trying to figure this out. She is the only one that produces like she does. I have been trying everything I can think of to control it or get the numbers down.

I have a clutch of 45 hatching right now , so far 19 babies and some more heads. I lost a few eggs so far maybe 4 or 5.

 

[Jerm]

Very interesting, awesome information. I have been trying to figure this out. She is the only one that produces like she does. I have been trying everything I can think of to control it or get the numbers down.

I have a clutch of 45 hatching right now , so far 19 babies and some more heads. I lost a few eggs so far maybe 4 or 5.

It's normal to lose some. Wow, only 4 or 5, that is a good clutch. Some clutches have high rates of losses and others low from what I've experienced, and i don't know yet exactly what causes it. I am keeping more detailed records now then I used to so maybe I will figure it out eventually. Not to start another subject, but how long did they take to hatch? Did you cool the eggs down in the begginning?

 

[sandrachameleon]

They are going to lay anyway so I am a little confused with this statement. Not sure why they would be considered commercial machines. Is it because the eggs are fertile vs infertile.

Actually, I've now got it so that mine lay only twice a year. And thats only if they start laying. I've been able to delay linitial aying quite a bit (longest is a year and a half almost two years before first clutch). So no, they dont "have to lay anyways."

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

Actually, I've now got it so that mine lay only twice a year. And thats only if they start laying. I've been able to delay linitial aying quite a bit (longest is a year and a half almost two years before first clutch). So no, they dont "have to lay anyways."

Tell that to my girl.

 

[Jerm]

Actually, I've now got it so that mine lay only twice a year. And thats only if they start laying. I've been able to delay linitial aying quite a bit (longest is a year and a half almost two years before first clutch). So no, they dont "have to lay anyways."

Ok. So are you willing to elaborate on how you get them to stop producing eggs? and I'm not talking about initial laying, i know about that part, I mean once they start, slowing down egg development to twice a year. That sounds pretty amazing, I have yet to have a healthy female that didn't produce eggs at 2 to 3 month intervals during the summer with or without breeding. We do live in completely different regions though.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

That is if they are not being bred correct? Do you breed them and only have 2 clutches a year and neither of them are retained? Since the thread was about breeding, my comment was made assuming it was in the context of breeding. When bred they are going to lay multiple clutches regardless of what you do in regards to diet or temperature. You may be able to get it down to 2 but you have to agree it is more than one. So one is retained???

I would love to hear more about it. I would really like to try some of the methods.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I've not been able to halt egg laying all together. But, similar to veileds, by not over feeding or over heating, they live longer and lay less often and even it seems fewer eggs per clutch. By limiting how much time they mate (one short session rather than leaving them together for a length of time) and trying to time the mating cycle, Ive not yet had a retained fertile clutch at all. But this is from somewhat limited experience. By "commercial" I meant I am not in any way whatsoever a big breeder, rather as a hobbiest only, just now and then for the joy of it. So limiting egg production and babies is what I try for. Almost the opposite to "... allow 1 retained clutch so I allowing breeding every other laying..."

 

[rnara002]

How does she prevent a retained clutch ? That i dont understand. Do you feed your chameleons once a week or something ? ELABORATE !