Regarding Calcium w/D3

[Syn]

All credit to Andrew Schnell of Pangea Reptile Forums with permission to repost. See the original post here: http://www.pangeareptile.com/forums/showpost.php?p=322906&postcount=25

Please note this is informational and was posted on a crested gecko forum and probably does not apply to chameleons.

[...]

The following is an informational warning on calcium products which include D3.

Whatever you do DO NOT USE "REPCAL Calcium with Vitamin D3 (Phosphorous Free) Ultrafine powder". This is an extremely dangerous product, I have a photocopy of a letter that the FDA sent to my Vet warning him about the potential dangers of a product that had the exact same concentrations of D3 and calcium as the RepCal product I listed above. When used as directed (aka a 0.330 gram 5 week old cricket gets dusted with the RepCal supplement, and an average of 0.045g of supplement gets added in the process of dusting), the cricket's vitamin D3 content becomes 55 times the safe limit of Vit D3!!! The recommended safe limit of Vit D3 is 5,000 IU/kg of food (dry weight). My vet has done plenty of lizard, gecko, and chameleon Necropsies in which it was determined the cause of death was massive over-calcification of the soft tissues, so this isn't "just talk". My vet's website (Dr. Mark Burgess) with all his info available = http://www.swanimalhospital.net/

Here are pictures of the letter from the FDA, the product name has been blacked out for liability reasons, but you can go look at the REPCAL label and see that the nutritional content of the supplement discussed in the letter matches that of the REPCAL product.

Anyone with a scale and a calculator can do their own study of any supplement, given that the label for the product is honest about the nutritional content (which is not always the case).

 

[Ellron]

This makes my scared Syn!
Don't scare my like this!

I hope this isn't applicable to chams.

 

[Syn]

We will see what people have to input about this. This was mainly geared towards crested geckos so..

 

[kinyonga]

I've used it twice a month for the chameleons (dusted lightly) for years and I haven't had any issues with it.

 

[Syn]

Right and normally this is not an issue with chameleons, though this is geared mostly towards crested geckos (hence being in Other Reptiles And Pets).

 

[Syn]

Bump, would love to hear input from others.

 

[VeiledOwner87]

my guess would be you wouldnt necessarly need to use a d3 suppliment on any nocturnal animal. that is why with crested geckos, there isnt even realy a need to suppliment your food unless of course they are insects. crested geckos should rightfully be on CGD to begin with, and repashy has very little d3 in the contents of the whole package. jmo. im no vet or scientist, i dont even sufficiently give my crested geckos or my pygmy chameleons uvb lighting, but rather just 6500K bulbs for uva

 

[Syn]

my guess would be you wouldnt necessarly need to use a d3 suppliment on any nocturnal animal. that is why with crested geckos, there isnt even realy a need to suppliment your food unless of course they are insects. crested geckos should rightfully be on CGD to begin with, and repashy has very little d3 in the contents of the whole package. jmo. im no vet or scientist, i dont even sufficiently give my crested geckos or my pygmy chameleons uvb lighting, but rather just 6500K bulbs for uva

Quoting the post from the other forum..

Just so people know the Rep-Cal with D3 has 400 000 IU/kg while the Repashy Calcium Plus ICB has 40 000 IU/kg - hence the concern that the Rep-Cal is too high a dosage.

- Midland

 

[solosigns]

if you are using rep-cal w/D3 then what should be the dose- as how much per week/month ? or to stop using all together.

 

[VeiledOwner87]

Quoting the post from the other forum..

- Midland

thats what i said syn lol, rep-cal d3 has 400,000 IU/kg, but the repashy content shows a min. of 2,000 IU/kg. the package doesnt read the maximum.

 

[Syn]

if you are using rep-cal w/D3 then what should be the dose- as how much per week/month ? or to stop using all together.

What animal are you talking about? It's really hard to determine that...

thats what i said syn lol, rep-cal d3 has 400,000 IU/kg, but the repashy content shows a min. of 2,000 IU/kg. the package doesnt read the maximum.

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I've used it twice a month for the chameleons (dusted lightly) for years and I haven't had any issues with it.

So have I. It is a perfectly safe and effective product for chameleons. edit: when used correctly, like anything else.
I also use it once every two months for my White's tree frogs (nocturnal) and once or twice a month for my mantella frogs (diurnal).

 

[kinyonga]

I use it on all the reptiles I have twice a month lightly and there has been no problem...one group of leos has been with me since 1993, the prehensile-tailed anole and the conehead since 2000, the Bibron's gecko's for over 8 years, etc.

 

[Syn]

So have I. It is a perfectly safe and effective product for chameleons.
I also use it once every two months for my White's tree frogs (nocturnal) and once or twice a month for my mantella frogs (diurnal).

Do you use Repcal or another product?

I use it on all the reptiles I have twice a month lightly and there has been no problem...one group of leos has been with me since 1993, the prehensile-tailed anole and the conehead since 2000, the Bibron's gecko's for over 8 years, etc.

Sounds like they have been with you a long time. I am assuming the real problem with this is the fact over-supplementing is a big issue. You two are great keepers and I highly doubt you don't know how to supplement.

Again, do you use Repcal or another product?

My vet has done plenty of lizard, gecko, and chameleon Necropsies in which it was determined the cause of death was massive over-calcification of the soft tissues, so this isn't "just talk".

 

[tdotcham]

interesting... i was also told to avoid the recal herptivite. apparently it has 10X the amount of vitamin a compared to similar products like reptivite.

 

[aschnell]

So have I. It is a perfectly safe and effective product for chameleons.
I also use it once every two months for my White's tree frogs (nocturnal) and once or twice a month for my mantella frogs (diurnal).

What are you basing this labeling of the product as "perfectly safe" as? I'm curious as to how you "found" it to be one of the better supplements around? Did you do the math, or conduct some sort of study I'm not aware of? Did you even read the letter that was posted? This isn't a matter of your opinion, opinions about the mathematically based nutritional facts provided in the letter are irrelevant in this case. Facts are facts, numbers are numbers. Please read the letter.

And could you define how this supplement should be used correctly? Does Repcal provide the amount of their product that should be applied to a prey item before feeding that I'm unaware of?

Also you may have never heard of any problems... But consider this: how many people do you know who have necropsies done on their animals after they die to find out the cause of death? I just listed reptile deaths attributed to D3 overdosing in the OP with my vet's info, if you don't believe me, ask him. You have all the resources you need to confirm the information I shared, there is no reason to cast doubt before checking out my story.

And now for some more background info for everyone...

The Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM) is the branch of the FDA which regulates food, food additives, and drugs that are given to animals, including food animals and pets. CVM's primary focus is on medications that are used in food animals and ensuring that they do not affect the human food supply. So basically keeping people's pet lizards healthy isn't really one of their top priorities. Honestly I didn't even know they handled non-human diet related issues until my Vet told me so, so I'm not too surprised they haven't done anything. Like I said above, I'm sure the people at the FDA have their hands full with plenty of other concerns, but that doesn't mean we can't write them some letters

The math isn't hard, so please read the letter and so the math yourself before posting... If the FDA says a common dusting of a cricket with RepCal yields a cricket with 55 times the safe limit of D3 (aka 275,000 IU/kg), then you need to add 54 parts (by weight) of calcium without D3 for every one part of calcium with D3 to reach the safe limit of 5,000 IU/kg.

It seems I've provided all of the information here, it would be nice to see others contributing information and facts as well, not just opinions.

If someone finds my post scary then I've done my job, but if it confused them that's not my fault. The post was well worded and very factual.

Also I'd like to see someone get a small enough amount of RepCal onto an cricket (when they dust it) for the cricket's calcium and D3 content to be within the acceptable range... Even the $3,000 scale we have in the lab wouldn't measure an amount of RepCal that small, so I doubt the standard pet owner would be able to tell if they were overdosing on D3 or not.

Also here is an un-fun fact for everyone: extremely high doses of D3 with calcium are used as one of the most effective methods of poisoning and killing rats and other animals. So I'm confused as to why people giving their geckos a massive D3 overdose shouldn't be scary...

Here is a quote from the Merck Veterinary Manual - Rodenticide Poisoning: Introduction for you to read...

"Cholecalciferol [aka Vit D3] produces hypercalcemia, which results in systemic calcification of soft tissue, leading to renal failure, cardiac abnormalities, hypertension, CNS depression, and GI upset. Signs generally develop within 18-36 hr of ingestion and can include depression, anorexia, polyuria, and polydipsia."

That sounds pretty scary to me...

I'm not saying anyone should not supplement feeder insects with Calcium and D3 if that's what the animal needs, I'm saying supplements should be provided in the correct amounts, that is all.

Before anybody replies to this, just know I wasn't trying to be hostile or unfriendly in this post, I was just trying to clear some things up and ask some relevant questions. I apologize in advance if anything seems rude, the post was not meant to be worded in a rude manner. It was meant to be unsettling and a (albeit somewhat dramatic) attempt at a reversal of the status quo. I hope everyone can understand.

 

[aschnell]

my guess would be you wouldnt necessarly need to use a d3 suppliment on any nocturnal animal. that is why with crested geckos, there isnt even realy a need to suppliment your food unless of course they are insects. crested geckos should rightfully be on CGD to begin with, and repashy has very little d3 in the contents of the whole package. jmo. im no vet or scientist, i dont even sufficiently give my crested geckos or my pygmy chameleons uvb lighting, but rather just 6500K bulbs for uva

Cresteds may not need as much D3 as other reptiles, but Cresteds still need D3 precisely because they're nocturnal and don't produce their own D3 via basking.

 

[kinyonga]

I've used only Rep-cal products for years...calcium, calcium/D3 and vitamins.
I hate changing because then you have to worry about balancing things again.

 

[aschnell]

I've used only Rep-cal products for years...calcium, calcium/D3 and vitamins.
I hate changing because then you have to worry about balancing things again.

Changing to something like Repashy's ICB Cricket Dust would be the first time the diet would be balanced in the first place...

 

[kinyonga]

Changing to something like Repashy's ICB Cricket Dust would be the first time the diet would be balanced in the first place...

And how do you figure that its the only way a balance can be achieved??