Proof needed?

[jrh3]

does anyone have proof or a scientific experiment where a cham has actually died or got sick from tomatoe plant fed hornworms?

I want to know other than, well thats what i was told or read. I really think that the worms metabolize the toxins and they are safe for chams.

Can anyone show proof? Just curious because i cant find anywhere that a cham has died from a tomatoe worm that was raised on a tomatoe plant and my brother has raised a few chameleons on tomatoe plant fed worms with no problems.

Is this a myth from the hornworm chow breeders just to sell chow?

If you dont know for sure please dont post.

I want true experiment answers.

As of now i call BS. It was a myth of chow dealers! If an animal eats a poisonous plant they metabolize the poison therefore the poison is broken down. Eating a tomatoe worm is not poisonous because they have metabolized the poison.

Please anyone that can PROVE me wrong, do! Im not jumping on the gotta buy chow wagon yet.

 

[Dez]

I have a friend that attempted to grow tomatoes in his garden. He went away for the weekend and when he came back found that Hornworms had turned his lush plants into sticks.

He ended up feeding about 10 hornworms to his chameleons

He text me later and said "oh well my tomato plants are destroyed but at east I have happy chams"

I replied that hornworms fed tomato leaves are suppose to be poison so maybe that was not a good idea...

But is had already been done and all he could do was keep an eye on them for weird behavior....

However nothing happened to the chameleons

 

[jrh3]

Thank you, that is what my brother said and he has literally raised them year round with indoor plants just to feed chameleons.

I think this all started with a chow company wanting to sell a product and scared everyone to not even try it so they but product.

I have yet to see proof of a dead chameleon from this.

Any animal that metabolizes something will chemically break down the structure of the poison of the plant.

I am majoring in chemistry and i have no proof of a harm due to science and chemistry it is not possible.

 

[pssh]

I haven't checked into it with hornworms, but keep in mind that a lot of lepidoptera store the toxic substances from the host plants in their bodies to repel predators. Just because they can eat it, doesn't mean that they break down the toxic substances to neutralize them.

I'll check into it and see what I can find specifically about hornworms.

 

[jrh3]

thanks Pssh your always cool.

 

[jrh3]

i also think there only defense is there ability to blend in with the plant.

Im so ready to bust this you gotta buy chow crap.

 

[jrh3]

lepidoptera is only proven by a few butterflies and other species but not tomatoe worms.

If so they would show a poison color like yellow or red not a green camo color to blend in with there host plant.

Anyone know where this threory originated from?

 

[pssh]

Okay so I found some stuff, and according to the study, manduca sexta is able to secrete some alkaloids and nicotine out through its poop. However, I'm pretty sure we use Manduca quinquemaculata as a feeder and not Manduca sexta, so I don't know if Manduca quinquemaculata is able to do the same. Anyways, the study on Manduca sexta was able to recover 16.8% of the nicotine with 98% in the poop and 1.8% in the body. That means that the worm can excrete a large amount of it in it's poop but still have a small amount in the body. Unfortunately, the alkaloid we are looking for is solanine as that is what is in the tomato plants or at least that family of plants.

I'm going to stop reading right now because I'm confusing myself. In conclusion, I was unable to find anything about Manduca quinquemaculata and solanine, but I was able to find lots of stuff on Manduca sexta and nicotine. I'll resume looking at some point in the future.


http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/institute/fak14/ipmb/phazb/pubwink/2002/29_2002.pdf

 

[SSimsswiSS]

Only thing I take out of this tread is: Chameleon might have urge for a cigarette after consumption. I have heard of other breeders who use hornworms right off the plants. I have on occasion used, but I think the hornworm moths avoid my backyards for some reason . I grow alot of heirlooms in the summer, but rarely have the luck of getting hornworms.

 

[DanSB]

It wouldn't surprise me if this was indeed a myth, tomatoes have historically been given a bad reputation, it just seems ingrained. people in the US especially regarded the tomato as poison and unfit for consumption until the early 1800s. Source below.

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/archives/parsons/publications/vegetabletravelers/tomato.html

I also heard somewhere that tomatoes were even used on a couple occasions to poison people (with no success and I can't find a reliable historical source).

My point being that IF it does turn out it is okay to feed directly off tomato plants this isn't necessarily a myth propagated by the chow companies, it is more likely these companies are simply responding to a common myth and providing a product to fill a niche.

Don't assume or infer that simply because a product is not needed it is the companies that provide said product who have fabricated or maliciously enforce the myth. This is a disparagement that is for now at least not warranted and doesn't need to be discussed with the possibility that it is safe to feed horns directly off of tomato plants.

 

[Carlton]

i also think there only defense is there ability to blend in with the plant.

Im so ready to bust this you gotta buy chow crap.

You don't HAVE to buy the chow, and can use worms who started out on tomato plants as long as you feed them the fruit only for a few days so they excrete the alkaloids. Supposedly the worms can be raised on bell pepper and tomato fruit, but for some of us who can't grow tomatoes year round the chow is very convenient.

 

[DanSB]

Only thing I take out of this tread is: Chameleon might have urge for a cigarette after consumption. I have heard of other breeders who use hornworms right off the plants. I have on occasion used, but I think the hornworm moths avoid my backyards for some reason . I grow alot of heirlooms in the summer, but rarely have the luck of getting hornworms.

ha a the tobacco worm would be a bad habit for our chameleons but hey maybe they could use one after mating?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I think some of it stems off of reported tomato toxicity in other species. The alkaloids present in tomatoes can cause cardiotoxicity in dogs. This has been seen in the veterinary field, albeit rarely. The young green tomato has the highest concentration of the alkaloids tha can be toxic. It has also been seen in chickens.

 

[SSimsswiSS]

Yes to the chow topic. The chow / artificial diet is for convenience. Shipping and rearing purposes. Not everbody has access to year round tomatoe vegatation.

 

[ataraxia]

Good thread, clearing things up is always a good thing

 

[patrickfraser]

I'm going to start growing tomatoes just for the worms, then. I've been under this ill-conceived notion (myth) that it was a "NO GO" to feed the worms off the plants as it would be detrimental to my pets. I guess I'll go ahead and plant my "Topsy Turvy" planter I bought in Spring.

 

[redsfandrew]

Yes to the chow topic. The chow / artificial diet is for convenience. Shipping and rearing purposes. Not everbody has access to year round tomatoe vegatation.

That is a sweeeet Pic! Mantids are so bad a$$

 

[chameleoman]

i like this thread

 

[jrh3]

Tomatoe plants are easy and cheap to grow indoors i also like the smell.

 

[joemacchirella]

my grandma used to grow tomatoes out here in vegas and me and my lil brother and cousins used to find the worms all the time the moths are everywhere out here my old neighbor had some sort of viney plant in front of her house and those moths are everywhere they get so huge