Parsonii

[Chuck G]

Unfortunately,the Parsonii community is pretty tight lipped with info and the sharing of sucess and failures. I document everything from feeding,fecal checks,weight,water consumption,humidity,sleep patterns,etc. I am willing to share info with anyone. It doesn't insure anything but I know what works for me currently. I know several people who are as meticulous as I am and we have shared ideas. Some people don't want anyone having these animals,let alone attempting to breed them. I respect everyone's opinion on this but is this any better than selling wild caught panthers,mellers,quads,jackson's etc to the general public,loaded with parasites to make a few bucks? I purchase plenty of wild caught animals that I use for breeding but I know how to clean them up. I sell only captive bred animals. My feeling is there are obviously some available from time to time and these should be in the hands of individuals that have the time and the resources to properly give these great chameleons everything they need to thrive. As far as Kingsnake goes there are always people who are selling animals that shouldn't. These people are usually found out by the community and told to stay away from.
The pair that is on now, I know Curtis has taken excellent care of and keeps records. If you can afford them, they would be a good pair to purchase.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Chuck... Nice Post... Thank You, You are right... is rare to hear any Parsons keepers speak about there animals. I am very impressed with your pictures... and am glad there are people like you out there working with them. I did not catch that Curtis was the person selling on KS... Good to know that he is a member here, I checked out his gallery and it looks like he does have a nice program going... some really beautiful animals. One I day I hope to reach the level where I could start working with them... haha I just noticed that is probably the most common phrase when it comes to any thread Parsons related... "One Day".

 

[Kat77]

DEFINITELY. I would say (again, not to spark a debate) that buying a CB Parsons is probably the best thing we can do for the wild populations. If people continue to only buy WC Parsons, someday they just wont be around anymore. I know Parson's eggs take something like two years to hatch and they take five years to reach sexual maturity, so breeding is tough and time consuming , which, I'm sure explains the price of Parsons. Well worth it though, and if I had the money, I would IMMEDIATELY support the CB cause!

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Wow. It's real nice to see this thread still moving along. I haven't given up on getting another Parson's after waiting 12 years but my family can't afford $5600 on a pair. Honestly I'm just looking for one male but I would love to jump back into breeding these.

There was a question from one poster about how often do they lay a clutch. I can say from experience back in the early 90's that a female can lay one clutch a year (not recommended in my book). I didn't lose her despite two clutches but sadly I didn't have success in hatching either clutch. This was back before Kalisch hatched his first clutch and published it.

Chuck, great post.

"Unfortunately,the Parsonii community is pretty tight lipped with info and the sharing of sucess and failures."

Even back when these animals were available in pet stores the serious keepers were real tight lipped about things. Finding another person willing to share info was a treat back then. I was amazed at the hate mail I received some months back when I started to inquire about getting another Male. Chris Anderson had to come to my rescue and tell people a little bit about me from way back before they let up.

While I respect many opinions from other people it only frustrates me to encounter those who can't do the same for me. Some people really get passionate about these animals not being kept as pets. My reply is and always will be the same, conservation is a two pronged approach. One is saving the animals natural habitat, the second is understanding their needs in captivity. Many zoos cannot care for these nor are inclined to have some in their collections. The few hobbyists I know of who have these magnificant animals really take good care of them, even PETA would have to say they are in good health (although PETA really doesn't want anybody owning any kind of pets imo). As for conservation, I haven't been lucky enough to go to Madagascar but the place seems to be having the same problems as other forested areas where people are trying to feed themselves at the expense of the surrounding habitat.

These animals are not for the novice, which is why I think people get hostile when somebody asks to purchase one. They are, quite easily, one of the most magnificant herps. Easily my favorite for more reasons than I care to list.


Keep the pictures coming, I'm enjoying them. Hopefully I'll find a male to add to the family and then I'll show you rookies some real photography.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I am just glad that we have been able to establish a stable population in captivity that are breeding so that we can enjoy these beatifull animals

This thread is full of a lot of misconceptions and hopefully I can clear a couple up.

First, the Europeans are not much further ahead of us in the US with breeding this species. I challenge any of you to find individuals who are truly breeding this species in Europe with any more regularity than anyone here in the US. You won't be able to find it. Virtually no one there can provide you the information they would have if they were actually breeding them (incubation info, laying info, breeding info, photos of any of this, etc.). They are more commonly available there then here because there are still banned species coming into Europe from Madagascar. This is not just the case with C. parsonii in Europe but also many other Malagasy species that were banned 13 years ago (F. minor, F. balteatus, F. willsii, C. brevicornis, C. globifer, C. oshaughnessyi, C. boetgeri, nasuta and many more).

Next, the populations in the US that people are working with are hardly stable. Stable to me would indicate self replenishing and they are not. There are only one or two people in the US that I'm aware of who are currently incubating C. parsonii eggs. With a 16 month incubation period, that is not many. Add into that the fact that there have not been any C. parsonii that have hatched in the US in about 4 years (and even then is was only a hand full of babies) and we hardly have a stable population in the US. The animals that almost everyone are working with and those that you have seen for sale in the past 5 years are from sources of large numbers of young animals in Indonesia and Europe, not from breeding here in the US (and see my previous point about global breeding successes)...Getting groups together in the hopes of having breeding is the first step and of course, people are doing this, but it really has not gotten any further then this in the vast majority of cases. Many people over the years have gotten groups together only to have nothing ever come of it except in one or two cases. The frequency of death in females during egg development is frighteningly high.

As Chuck has said, the animals that are around, especially females, really need to be in the hands of people who are the most qualified to work with them. The obstacles facing those trying to breed them are incredible and every shred of experience and knowledge counts.

Chris

 

[Kent67]

I know for a fact that there are plenty of legal Parsonii projects that are going on...

Lets say I stole some Tuataras out of New Zealand. Or some Varanus komodoensis out of Indonesia. Or some Fiji Iguanas.... I bring them back to the US and produce a couple babies. Are they "legal?" They are still the result of smuggling them out of where they belong. All these countries where Parsons chameleons are supposedly being bred are basically the same as money laundering. Change the paper trail so they aren't so traceable and voila! Legal Parson's imports for the US.

Wake up folks. The people who have the means and morals to smuggle protected wildlife across the globe probably also have the means and morals to smuggle more than just wildlife. In a post-9/11 world, those just don't seem like the best people to be supporting, do they? Why do you? Like it or not, you are supporting organized crime. Think about it.

 

[bucky]

Notice your quote lol.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Thanks Chris for the bit of info... I definately jumped the gun with wishful thinking to consider our CB Parsons populations stable. I just know I have seen several pairs in the hands of reputable breeders but you are right, I haven't heard of any babies in a long time. Hopefully the hard work and study by these people will lead to hardier and more stable captive populations as I believe there is no question this would take a serious chop at the exported chams going into all countries.

 

[Kent67]

After 20 years of the best, most experienced chameleon keepers in the world being unable to reproduce this species with any kind of frequency, why can't anyone just give up? Accept them for what they are. There's not going to be some "breakthrough."

I'd much rather see our collective efforts go into working with CITES to allow limited quotas of these species to be legally exported so that breeders and hobbyists could continue to work with them. Man, I really don't understand why everyone seems so supportive of the black market here. Really bums me out and makes me rethink whether I even want to be known as a part of "the community."

 

[SoCaliSon]

Kent... First I want to say that I have gained a respect for you as well as a lot of the people on the forum in my time here reading and taking part in discussions... I don't want to argue... I enjoy engage in topics like this with people more experienced than I, because it is a great opportunity to learn. I want to pose the question... Are you saying that absolutely none of the banned chams exported pre 1994 have survived to have clutches.. and that none of those clutches have survived? I would think that with all the chams exported to all the different places in the world before 1994 there are bound to be captive populations stemming from if not all, most of the species that were banned. We know there is still illegal exportation going on... But given the nature of the beast, I will say again, the only way to offset the demand for export these species would be to try to stabilize captive populations, while at the same time directly combating the exportation trade with politics. I am not condoning and would never condone someone buying an illegally imported animal, as that would be directly funding the problem. But I don't believe that everyone keeping parsons in the US or other places in the world are keeping WC Illegally exported animals, and I believe that the responsible keepers out there that are working with the captive Parsons are crucial to the fight on illegal exportation. Regardless of how many become available in the US I believe they should always carry the heavy price tag. Even if populations in captivity took off in the next 20 years... Parsons would still not be for everybody... And I feel the price is not only a good reflection of what it takes to have success with these, but the perfect filter to make sure that the people who have them know what they are getting into.

 

[SoCaliSon]

I'd much rather see our collective efforts go into working with CITES to allow limited quotas of these species to be legally exported so that breeders and hobbyists could continue to work with them. Man, I really don't understand why everyone seems so supportive of the black market here. Really bums me out and makes me rethink whether I even want to be known as a part of "the community."

As for the first part of your statement... I really like that idea and seems like a good approach. It really bums me out when people I respect accuse me of supporting something I do not, and then make statements like that. You can try to teach me a thing or two, I will readilly admit you are more educated than me in these areas. Just trying to have a discussion... First time I have been disappointed on this forum.

 

[Kent67]

Copied and pasted from another thread: According to data from CITES World Conservation Monitoring Centre 18,737 Parson's chameleons were exported from Madagascar from 1986 to 1998. Most were during the 8 years before the suspension in '95. As the heaviest species of chameleon, they weigh between 300 to 600 grams. Let's call it an average of say 450 grams each. That is EIGHT TONS of Parson's chameleons, of which it was estimated roughly 1%(186 pounds)were still alive by Fall 2001.

So, of that 1% of legal animals still alive in 2001, how many have had successful hatchlings since then? Second generation breedings? I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to assume until proven wrong that any of the C. parsonii that hatched in the US from 2001 to present came from parents that were imported after the CITES restrictions.

 

[Kent67]

As for the first part of your statement... I really like that idea and seems like a good approach. It really bums me out when people I respect accuse me of supporting something I do not, and then make statements like that. You can try to teach me a thing or two, I will readilly admit you are more educated than me in these areas. Just trying to have a discussion... First time I have been disappointed on this forum.

That quote did not apply to you specifically, but to this entire thread. This is a topic that is important to me and as you asked some questions, and are the only one doing so at the moment. Please don't take anything but the direct facts as being responses directly to you.

 

[Kent67]

Oh crazy! I got up on the same high horse a day later last year:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/madagascar-chameleons-4070/

 

[SoCaliSon]

it was estimated roughly 1%

With as "tight lipped" as the Parsons community is... Do you think the "roughly estimated" number, is really accurate? Tell me how they would acquire an accurate record of this when they are relying on what is reported. All it would really take is a couple breeders who do it right to keep the numbers growing...

I respect when people are passionate about their beliefs, and I don't think ours really differ Kent, Thanks for taking the time to discuss it with me...

 

[OldChamKeeper]

That quote did not apply to you specifically, but to this entire thread. This is a topic that is important to me and as you asked some questions, and are the only one doing so at the moment. Please don't take anything but the direct facts as being responses directly to you.

Wow. I'm not sure how to take all the recent posts of yours Kent. That's the simplest way I can put it. I can't even articulate in text how important Herps are in my and my family's life, let alone how much having my Parson's was a positive experience. Of course, on the other hand, I didn't have to kill 3 or 4 in order to learn how to care for them like other people I've met over the years. Easily a difficult species to keep and the high price is indeed a good filter to keep a beginner away. I wish more of these animals were expensive enough to keep away the rookies. Money tends to separate the serious from the not serious keepers (but not 100%).

Chris, thanks for the post. As always you're a solid source for info on these animals.


Now back to the original reason for this thread..post some pictures.

 

[Kent67]

I understand how majestic they are. I kept them back in the day too. I would like to have another pair now. However, they are not so important to me that I feel the need to support smuggling to do so. Do you see the difference?

 

[SoCaliSon]

That quote did not apply to you specifically, but to this entire thread. This is a topic that is important to me and as you asked some questions, and are the only one doing so at the moment. Please don't take anything but the direct facts as being responses directly to you.

I haven't heard anybody say anything that I would consider "supporting the black market", But that is what you are accusing people on the forum of. The disappointment I think Kent, would be you reconsidering yourself as part of "the community" because you don't agree with another's views. There are always two sides to the coin. A High Horse is never a good place to have a discussion.
I hope to get a chance to shake your hand and buy you a beer at the show... I respect the views of my fellow herpers and jump on the opportunity learn from you guys. Sorry ... OldCham... Back to the Awesome pics.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

I'd much rather see our collective efforts go into working with CITES to allow limited quotas of these species to be legally exported so that breeders and hobbyists could continue to work with them. Man, I really don't understand why everyone seems so supportive of the black market here. Really bums me out and makes me rethink whether I even want to be known as a part of "the community."

I had a cham for years, and bought several more, before I ever saw the term "cites". Before seeing these threads, if I had had the money, and found Parsonii available online at the right time, I would probably have purchased them and unwittingly tried to start a breeding project.

I've recently seen links to current CITES data, but am not sure I understand the process.

Is it believed here that the wild Parsonii populations can now support broader exportation? Does it take years, or perhaps decades, of collected data to effect change in CITES allowances? Seems like it should, to be fair.

It seems there is an "Animals Committee" (comprised of Homo Sapiens, I presume ) whose job it is to present local populations data to the Conference. Does anyone know how this data is collected?

If I understand correctly, CITES spun off from the United Nations. In reading bits of their annual agenda and documents, they seem to operate similarly to the United Nations. If any of you were members of a U.N. club in high school, and participated in national conferences, you understand that data can be manipulated to promote various ideological platforms, and that political influence and strong persuasion play a hefty part in the process. On the face of it, it seems unlikely that keepers/breeders in the U.S. could hope to infiltrate this process in a way that would bring meaningful change.

Kent... Are you saying that absolutely none of the banned chams exported pre 1994 have survived to have clutches.. and that none of those clutches have survived? I would think that with all the chams exported to all the different places in the world before 1994 there are bound to be captive populations stemming from if not all, most of the species that were banned.

In my VERY limited experience with WC Meller's, and from what I have read coming out of the Meller's community, I can see how delicate certain species can be. It can be absolutely maddening for those working hard to create a sustainable captive population, with good mixture of bloodlines, etc. Based on my very limited knowledge of Meller's, it is very easy for me to imagine that there would be no remnants remaining of legally imported (U.S.) Parsonii groups.

 

[Kent67]

But, don't take my word for it:

The animals that almost everyone are working with and those that you have seen for sale in the past 5 years are from sources of large numbers of young animals in Indonesia and Europe, not from breeding here in the US (and see my previous point about global breeding successes)

How would you become a "source of large numbers of young animals" if you were not having success actually breeding them?