Parasites in bio-active set up

[Ceilli3]

Hi all, does anyone know anything about bio-active set-ups? How to maintain etc. Also how do you clean & get rid of parasites in this type of set-up? I also posted in a natural reptile forum so I'm just going to copy & paste: Hi all, am hoping for some advice. We bought a young female Panther chameleon around 7-8 weeks ago from a pet shop. We also spent around £300 on a bio terrarium-one I don't have to clean-it's all set up with moss, plants growing out of it etc (expensive I know but easier for me to buy already set up as I have ME). Anyway after a visit to the vets today turns out our little Rosie has ALOT of parasites including worms-the vet says for them to be past the egg stage she has had them longer than 8weeks. I need to change the substrate & clean terrarium while she is having treatment but we just paid £300 odd for this set up only to throw all the inside out! I'm going to ask pet shop to replace if poss as she has had this infection when we bought her but am worried they may be difficult-what could I do in the meantime with her enclosure?
Thanks. I spoke to the pet shop today. They say it will be enough to flush the stone drainage & replace the soil & moss which isn't expensive. They are a bit funny about admitting Rosie had parasites when we got her but the lady did give me lots of advice over the phone. She also advised buying springtails-does anyone know if these help with parasites? She recommended putting reptile disinfectant through the fogger but said check with vet first on the type of disinfectant for chameleons-does anyone know of a natural disinfectant I could use? What do people think-do you think this will be enough to get rid of parasites & prevent reinfection while my girl is having her treatment? I'm going to discuss with the vet on Monday too. Was also given some advice on the upkeep of the bio-active set up but will put in separate post
Hi again, am after some advice on the upkeep of a bio-active set-up. I know it's self-cleaning but after a call to the pet shop today regarding parasites (see earlier post) have been advised to chyphon any water from the stone bottom regularly (though I'm not sure how often) & replace the soil & moss yearly-does this sound about right? What do other people do? I have a squeegee for the glass-do I use a disinfectant with this or just water? Do springtails help with parasites? I saw an earlier post about darkling beetles-are they the beetles mealworms turn into & can I leave these in the enclosure to help clean up? Any advice much appreciated-I am new to this type of set up. Thnx

Sorry long & all the copying & pasting but makes my life easier! I've been advised to use Reptiboost probiotics & Verm-X-has anyone heard of these & know if safe for chameleon? The pet shop are telling me most reptiles will have worms if a fecal sample done & denying any responsibility & im now in a predicament where I've spent money on a pre-set up terrarium & I have to take everything out after only 7weeks. Does anyone know if this is the case-that most reptiles have worms & parasites? Should we be worming them regularly for prevention? I've been advised on the other forum to replace plants also. I'm not really well enough for all this hence why I bought the set up I did! Here I am up at 3.30 in the morning worrying about it all! I really need advice quick on what's best to do as Rosie has started treatment & her terrarium needs to be disinfected. Thanks for taking the time to read

 

[Andee]

Well if it's a bioactive enclosure I am confused as to why it doesn't already have springtails in it those are a huge backbone of cleaner crews. Springtails and tropical isopods are a mandatory thing in a bioactive enclosure or else it's not really bioactive. The only reason bioactive enclosures don't need to be cleaned is because of them, they clean it for you. Growing plants don't eat feces. I can't honestly tell you whether the springtails will help get rid of the parasites already living in your terrarium but I can tell you this, whoever sold that to you obviously was just trying to make money and had either no idea what they were doing, or didn't care enough to finish the job.

 

[Andee]

It is true that it is very possible for a reptile to get parasites at any time if they eat insects. Crickets especially are widely known for being a major carrier of intestinal parasites. However it depends on how bad the infestation of her gut is, if it is actually a problem. Chameleons can live quite easily with a small amount of intestinal parasites in them, however it can easily get out of hand, especially if she was Captive bred and born. I have realized the chameleons who are from captive lines have a harder time fighting off parasites. Not sure if it's because of their immune system or not.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Your best bet is to keep the chameleon in a bare bottom enclosure, with paper towels and faux foliage, until 3 fecal test, spaced 2 weeks apart or more, show no parasites. "Bioactive" is a term coined to imply a system is self maintaining, but the reality is that most terrariums or naturalistic set-ups will require replacement of the soil every year to several years, especially with the amount of moisture in chameleon enclosures. The pH of organic materials that are decaying naturally declines and eventually this will cause conditions that are not suitable for the bacteria needed to convert nitrogen products into harmless versions, useable to the plants. Plants will also suffer, when the pH drops.
A bioactive set-up is very possible with a chameleon, but I strongly question whether one that was ready to buy was properly set-up. The moss on your enclosure is one warning sign that it probably isn't set-up specifically for a chameleon, as fibrous misses are a real danger for causing impaction and most mosses don't actually grow well in chameleon set-ups.
There is no way to sterilize or properly clean a soil of parasites, unless you bake it to a high temperature, which kills the microbes that make the soil biologically active to begin with.
Springtails, woodlice (aka isopods), and similar cleaner insects are actually secondary to the invisible bacteria, but the hobby has marketed and endorsed these items as key to these set-up and they are indeed useful, even if not absolutely required.
Use bleach in the fogger or ammonia. You need something fairly caustic to eliminate parasite eggs, which are very resilient. Chlorine and ammonia are both natural elements, that will evaporate and can be easily rinsed away. They are also very toxic, so through rinsing and allowing the fogger to dry will be paramount to ensure absolute elimination of either substance. Usually a 1:10 ration or bleach/ammonia to water is advised, but I'd run this through for several cycles, since the parasites need plenty of exposure to be eliminated.
Revisit the bioactive approach, AFTER the chameleon is free of parasites and springtails will not help with parasites, in any way and could even transmit them, by ingesting eggs from contaminated substrate.

 

[Ceilli3]

It is true that it is very possible for a reptile to get parasites at any time if they eat insects. Crickets especially are widely known for being a major carrier of intestinal parasites. However it depends on how bad the infestation of her gut is, if it is actually a problem. Chameleons can live quite easily with a small amount of intestinal parasites in them, however it can easily get out of hand, especially if she was Captive bred and born. I have realized the chameleons who are from captive lines have a harder time fighting off parasites. Not sure if it's because of their immune system or not.

Thanks Andee, the vet said she had a lot-she had blood in her poop straight away after we got her from the shop. Unfortunately getting her fecal sample sent off & her vet trip was all delayed because my cat got run over & we had a lot of vets trips for her & had to sort out a cage for her to come home to etc so poor Rosie wasn't a priority. I felt really bad but the vet said it wouldn't have made much difference as looks like the parasites have been there for months.

Regarding the springtails, I believe I have seen some in the enclosure but when I told the pet shop this they said they don't normally put them in already-we have to buy them! Makes me think they don't know what the hell they're selling! I'm really not happy with them.

 

[Ceilli3]

Your best bet is to keep the chameleon in a bare bottom enclosure, with paper towels and faux foliage, until 3 fecal test, spaced 2 weeks apart or more, show no parasites. "Bioactive" is a term coined to imply a system is self maintaining, but the reality is that most terrariums or naturalistic set-ups will require replacement of the soil every year to several years, especially with the amount of moisture in chameleon enclosures. The pH of organic materials that are decaying naturally declines and eventually this will cause conditions that are not suitable for the bacteria needed to convert nitrogen products into harmless versions, useable to the plants. Plants will also suffer, when the pH drops.
A bioactive set-up is very possible with a chameleon, but I strongly question whether one that was ready to buy was properly set-up. The moss on your enclosure is one warning sign that it probably isn't set-up specifically for a chameleon, as fibrous misses are a real danger for causing impaction and most mosses don't actually grow well in chameleon set-ups.
There is no way to sterilize or properly clean a soil of parasites, unless you bake it to a high temperature, which kills the microbes that make the soil biologically active to begin with.
Springtails, woodlice (aka isopods), and similar cleaner insects are actually secondary to the invisible bacteria, but the hobby has marketed and endorsed these items as key to these set-up and they are indeed useful, even if not absolutely required.
Use bleach in the fogger or ammonia. You need something fairly caustic to eliminate parasite eggs, which are very resilient. Chlorine and ammonia are both natural elements, that will evaporate and can be easily rinsed away. They are also very toxic, so through rinsing and allowing the fogger to dry will be paramount to ensure absolute elimination of either substance. Usually a 1:10 ration or bleach/ammonia to water is advised, but I'd run this through for several cycles, since the parasites need plenty of exposure to be eliminated.
Revisit the bioactive approach, AFTER the chameleon is free of parasites and springtails will not help with parasites, in any way and could even transmit them, by ingesting eggs from contaminated substrate.

Thnx Extensionofgreen. We have been keeping an eye on her & she does not seem to eat the plants or the moss-do you think it's ok as long as she's not eating it? Really helpful advice on the cleaning. It sounds like I will have to replace the soil, plants & moss. Maybe I should soak the stones in bleach & keep them ready for when she's parasite free? I am a bit worried about using bleach, I don't even use it in my house, but obviously need to ensure eggs are killed! Yes the set up wasn't great-some of the plants weren't even embedded in the soil properly & died. The pet shop are trying to downplay it all & make out the vet is scaring me about the cleaning, that I don't need to be so thorough. They said the parasites wouldn't get to the stones only the soil but they also told me springtails would clean them up so not trusting them!

 

[Extensionofgreen]

Thnx Extensionofgreen. We have been keeping an eye on her & she does not seem to eat the plants or the moss-do you think it's ok as long as she's not eating it? Really helpful advice on the cleaning. It sounds like I will have to replace the soil, plants & moss. Maybe I should soak the stones in bleach & keep them ready for when she's parasite free? I am a bit worried about using bleach, I don't even use it in my house, but obviously need to ensure eggs are killed! Yes the set up wasn't great-some of the plants weren't even embedded in the soil properly & died. The pet shop are trying to downplay it all & make out the vet is scaring me about the cleaning, that I don't need to be so thorough. They said the parasites wouldn't get to the stones only the soil but they also told me springtails would clean them up so not trusting them!

The trouble with the moss isn't that it will become a breeding ground for mold and bacteria and while the chameleon should not normally consider ingesting it, it may ingest it accidentally, shooting at an insect on the cage floor.
For the living plants that you want to save, is rinse off as much of the old soil as possible and Then swish the plants in some warm water and dish soap, then rinse. Repeat this 3 times and change the water in between. This won't eliminate all possibility of parasites, but should rinse away most eggs and be fairly safe.
Bleach is not the evil it is made out to be. The active ingredient is chlorine, as is in tap water and swimming pools. It is actually very safe, once rinsed AND air dried, as chlorine evaporates quickly, which is why people let tap water sit for 24hours, before using it with plants and fish. Of course, chlorine was easy to allow to evaporate from tap water, so the ever industrious humans has decided that chloramines should be added to tap water, which does not evaporate, requires special filters or chemicals to eliminate, and is more toxic to life....brilliant!(sigh)
I am convinced that in America, there is special group of industrial business owners that brainstorm how to make EVERYTHING carcinogenic or toxic, before it is sold. EVERYTHING, from food and water to household caperting is full of toxic garbage that should not be allowed, but I digress. Use the bleach, when your baby is clear of the nasties, rebuild your own set-up, and you will be happier and have better results.

 

[Ceilli3]

The trouble with the moss isn't that it will become a breeding ground for mold and bacteria and while the chameleon should not normally consider ingesting it, it may ingest it accidentally, shooting at an insect on the cage floor.
For the living plants that you want to save, is rinse off as much of the old soil as possible and Then swish the plants in some warm water and dish soap, then rinse. Repeat this 3 times and change the water in between. This won't eliminate all possibility of parasites, but should rinse away most eggs and be fairly safe.
Bleach is not the evil it is made out to be. The active ingredient is chlorine, as is in tap water and swimming pools. It is actually very safe, once rinsed AND air dried, as chlorine evaporates quickly, which is why people let tap water sit for 24hours, before using it with plants and fish. Of course, chlorine was easy to allow to evaporate from tap water, so the ever industrious humans has decided that chloramines should be added to tap water, which does not evaporate, requires special filters or chemicals to eliminate, and is more toxic to life....brilliant!(sigh)
I am convinced that in America, there is special group of industrial business owners that brainstorm how to make EVERYTHING carcinogenic or toxic, before it is sold. EVERYTHING, from food and water to household caperting is full of toxic garbage that should not be allowed, but I digress. Use the bleach, when your baby is clear of the nasties, rebuild your own set-up, and you will be happier and have better results.

Thanks that's really helpful. Good to know I can save some plants! I will have to research bio-active set-ups for chams & find an alternative to moss then-thank you for this information. Wish I just did it all myself in the first place now but then I still would've had to change it all because of the parasites. My brother's husband is coming to help me on Weds (I hope this isn't too far away but Rosie has had the wormer & starting antibiotics on tues so hopefully it's about the right time to
disinfect everything). He has kept chameleons before so will be good to have his help! I am very much against chemicals & nasties because of my own health issues &
that filters down to my animals also so I know what you mean about all the toxic crap! I like everything to be as natural as possible! Thanks so much for all the help