Panther keeps missing his food...???

[David]

Male panther about 7 months is a little undersized from his brother and the reason is that his aim seems way off. I watch him go for food and his tongue shoots high always over the food. Eventually he gets close enough and gets the cricket or superworm, but it's frustrating to watch. I gut load his food, use vitacal dust on the crickets and mist the folliage a few times a day.

Is his condition unusual or what?

 

[Elizadolots]

Pictures might be helpful.

I sort of have to think that humans are not unique in having a wide range of "visual ability"...so, maybe his vision is just not that good.

As long as he eventually gets the food, I suspect things are not that bad.

People will want you to fill out the "how to ask for help" form linked at the top of this forum. Just copy that and paste it, then fill in your information. You might want to do that in a word processing document that you can save in case you have a question in the future (because, the form is always requested).

 

[sandrachameleon]

Yes, this is unusual - there is a problem. Tongue troubles are usually diet related. Complete the how to ask for help questionaire.

You may find this blog entry useful:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/232-tongue-troubles.html

 

[David]

Thank you for your helpful responses. Here’s the info from the Chameleon Health Questionaire and my answers:

• Problem - Again, his aim seems way off. I watch him go for food and his tongue shoots high always over the food. Eventually he gets close enough and gets the cricket or superworm, but it's frustrating to watch. He’s undersized for his age, or at least in comparison to his bro.
• Chameleon Description – He’s a Ambilobe Blue Bar, male, +/-8 mos. old, have been caring for it for about 4.5 months since I bought it from a local seller who advertised him for sale on this for sale board.
• Handling - A few times a week and he’s fine with it, but like most chams, would prefer to be hanging out on a branch.
• Feeding - Crickets and superworms, usually a couple or few of one and/or the other available daily. Gut loading is carrots and potatoes, plus Zukers with the crickets.
• Supplements - I always dust the crickets with Miner-All.
• Watering - I mist 2 – 3 times daily with filtered drinking water (tap), and he seems to always drink from the leaves.
• Fecal Description – Generally dark brown fecies, occaisionally with a little touch of white. This male currently shares his cage with his bro and they get along well, but I can’t say who’s crap is who’s…
• History – He’s been eating this way since I received him.
• Cage Type - Standard commercial make screen cage of about 28”w x 14”d x 24”h.
• Lighting - Fixture one is Reptisun 16” UVB 10.0, and fixture two is warm lamp 60w incandesant. Lights are on from 7:30 am to 7:30 pm, or they are in their cage outdoors for about 50% of the time midday if I am home.
• Temperature - Temps are generally room temp (68 – 72f) and warmer under the bulb itself.
• Humidity - Created by daily misting and watering of plant.
• Plants - Schefflera abroricola, 6” pot.
• Placement - Cage is loated on a counter at 3’ height in my home office, no traffic and calm. No proximity to AC and not too close to floor vents.
• Location - Where are you geographically located? SoCal, indoors.
• See attached pics also.

Thank you for your time and input!

 

[kinyonga]

Does the tongue shoot out all the way?

 

[Echoezra]

Which minerall?
Any multivitamins?

 

[Echoezra]

On a side note, you have TWO male chameleons, that age, in a cage that size??? I'm gonna back away now while you get blasted...
You're going to need to change that. They each need their own cage, and each one needs to be bigger than that.

 

[Picasso123]

His issue is he could be getting an a$$-whooping from the brother!??

1 cham per cage and I've only been here a few months. A cage is only $80 at lllreptile too. Much less then what you paid for him. FIX that please!

Humidity needs a gauge, humidity should be 40-50%

Foodstuff: drop the potatoes an switch in a lettuce NO ICEBURG! I use collard greens $2 for a huge bunch lasts me longer then I need it.

Daily misting is how long and how often? misting needs to be done every 3hrs or once before work and right after u get home and then every 3hrs before bedtime.

Placement: is it near a window?

 

[David]

Does the tongue shoot out all the way?

Maybe half way of normal. I was just looking real close and noticed he's not opening his left eye...

Which minerall?
Any multivitamins?

Sticky Tongue Farms MinerAll, but no multi vitamins. Should I be, and if so, which is recommended?

On a side note, you have TWO male chameleons, that age, in a cage that size??? I'm gonna back away now while you get blasted...
You're going to need to change that. They each need their own cage, and each one needs to be bigger than that.

These are still young siblings but I will seperate soon. I have other cages at the ready.

His issue is he could be getting an a$$-whooping from the brother!??

There's no ass whoopin' going on here. They are in my home office most of the time and I work at home.

1 cham per cage and I've only been here a few months. A cage is only $80 at lllreptile too. Much less then what you paid for him. FIX that please!

Humidity needs a gauge, humidity should be 40-50%

Foodstuff: drop the potatoes an switch in a lettuce NO ICEBURG! I use collard greens $2 for a huge bunch lasts me longer then I need it.

Daily misting is how long and how often? misting needs to be done every 3hrs or once before work and right after u get home and then every 3hrs before bedtime.

Placement: is it near a window?

Humidity, is likely room normal plus a couple percent. I don't have any other place for them but in my home office, and so humidity will still depend on my regular misting, dripper, watering plant, etc.

I will change the taters to lettuce as suggested.

Cage is in a room with lots of windows.

So what would cause one eye to be shut?

 

[David]

OK, so now he's hanging out on top of the cage and he's got both eyes wide open and looking normal... I think he's just messin' w/ me

This afternoon was the first time I've seen him with the left eye closed but now they're open, so I don't know if this is an ongoing problem or just a fluke...
.
.
.

 

[kinyonga]

Stress caused by a cagemate is sometimes "silent"...you won't see it...it just happens and is indicated by declining health.

 

[Jeeleon]

Mines was doing this too. So the breeder gave me a discount on him. But sometimes, chams could just injure their tongue. From what I was told from my breeder and vet, if it is an injured tongue, it can take anywhere from 3-6mos to fully heal. So cross ur fingers...

 

[Echoezra]

Which minerall though? (there are two different kinds, one is Indoor - WITH vit.D, one is called Outdoor, no vit D)
Normally people use a calcium Without vit.D daily or most often, then occasionally use one with D3 (if its repcal brand, it's stronger so twice a month with minerall it's weaker so more frequently) and occasionally use a multivitamin like herptivite or reptivite a couple times a month as well.
So basically, if you've only been using minerall, it's possible they could be lacking in vit. A, for starters, and also depending on which minerall, could be either lacking or overdosing on vit. D as well.... I think both of these problems can be traced to tongue issues, as the two vitamins need to be in balance with each other.

As for the "young siblings" thing... The word young is a very relative term.
Normally by 3 months chameleons are shipped off to live on their own. I'm sure some are divided well before then also. You said 8 months?? That is plenty grown, and they should each have full claim to approx 2x2x4 cage territory by now.

 

[Echoezra]

Nobody's mentioned the 10.0 light either - normally the trusted UVB light source is reptisun 5.0. for your average screen. The 10.0 are designed for desert species like beardies, it's strong for a Cham. Some people use them for really dense filtering screen, but not usually. So that could be something to fix also.
Did you get this light from the previous owners? Because then it would also probably be overdue for changing anyway. Even if you bought it yourself around 5 months ago, it's almost due for a change. This time get 5.0's.

 

[David]

Stress caused by a cagemate is sometimes "silent"...you won't see it...it just happens and is indicated by declining health.

OK

Mines was doing this too. So the breeder gave me a discount on him. But sometimes, chams could just injure their tongue. From what I was told from my breeder and vet, if it is an injured tongue, it can take anywhere from 3-6mos to fully heal. So cross ur fingers...

Will do...

Which minerall though? (there are two different kinds, one is Indoor - WITH vit.D, one is called Outdoor, no vit D)
Normally people use a calcium Without vit.D daily or most often, then occasionally use one with D3 (if its repcal brand, it's stronger so twice a month with minerall it's weaker so more frequently) and occasionally use a multivitamin like herptivite or reptivite a couple times a month as well.
So basically, if you've only been using minerall, it's possible they could be lacking in vit. A, for starters, and also depending on which minerall, could be either lacking or overdosing on vit. D as well.... I think both of these problems can be traced to tongue issues, as the two vitamins need to be in balance with each other.

As for the "young siblings" thing... The word young is a very relative term.
Normally by 3 months chameleons are shipped off to live on their own. I'm sure some are divided well before then also. You said 8 months?? That is plenty grown, and they should each have full claim to approx 2x2x4 cage territory by now.

I will address changes to the MinerAll and Vitamins. Can you recommend a link to a guide on how to address minerals and vitamins please?

Nobody's mentioned the 10.0 light either - normally the trusted UVB light source is reptisun 5.0. for your average screen. The 10.0 are designed for desert species like beardies, it's strong for a Cham. Some people use them for really dense filtering screen, but not usually. So that could be something to fix also.
Did you get this light from the previous owners? Because then it would also probably be overdue for changing anyway. Even if you bought it yourself around 5 months ago, it's almost due for a change. This time get 5.0's.

The 10.0 came from the past from when I had bought another panther, but that one got away when I had left him alone outside too long on a bush. Good thing that our climate is mild... hope he's still around here somewhere.

 

[Ekaj13]

I use 10.0s on my 4' cages without any problems at all. I believe 10.0s are better for montane species as well.

 

[Echoezra]

No problem I will try and find you some links tomorrow, right now I'm falling asleep and can't read properly anymore, lol.

 

[Stanly]

The 10.0 came from the past from when I had bought another panther, but that one got away when I had left him alone outside too long on a bush. Good thing that our climate is mild... hope he's still around here somewhere.

Then it's probably time to replace it anyway, they are only good for like 6mo to a year (depended on brand I think), they will still put off light but not uvb (or not the right amout).

also at around 5 or 5 1/2 months my guy started showing signs of sexual maturity (as in he flashed his hemi penis, and another time displaying to either himself in the mirror or something ). my point is at 6 months there not babies any more and while they may not be ready to breed they may think they are and start getting more territorial. So I'd have to agree with others it's time to "keep'em separated"

For now you might try cup or even hand feeding, but I wouldn't ignore the advice already given (such as better gut loading, vitamins, etc) because it seems like the tongue/targeting issue maybe a sign of a underlying problem.

 

[Elizadolots]

As said before, you need to separate them. From everything I've read, 5 to 8 months is the "adolescent" transition from youth to adult. It doesn't matter that you don't see any ass kicking, your chameleon is likely afraid of an ass kicking so stressing out. Make sure that they cannot see each other in their new, separate enclosures. Coroplast makes a great divider. You can put the cages side by side and have them share a longer UVB bulb.

 

[sandrachameleon]

OK

I will address changes to the MinerAll and Vitamins. Can you recommend a link to a guide on how to address minerals and vitamins please?
.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
and
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

If you dont cage them separately and properly, you're just asking for them to die so why bother feeding and supplementing properly