Panther Cham has bloody nose

[Xim]

this is taheris nose after it stopped bleeding. She is very upset.
We did let her out to roam the sunroom on the ivys and she turned the most pretty bubblegum pink I have ever seen. (my husband wants me to let you know I'm Natalie joes wife. Lol. )
Taheri ate her dinner well. A wax worm and a horn worm. I think she likes being out on the vine more then in her house. I think I want to try free ranging her. Just have to figure out heat and uv. Perhaps a murcury vapor bulb over the plant she likes? Do y'all think this would help her stress.

 

[Xim]

One nostril her left. And yes twice about a week apart.

 

[Xim]

Looking at her poo tonight my husband says its more a pinkish color sorry it a bad pic. It's in her planter in the bottom of her cage.

 

[Xim]

Oh and she opens her mouth to try and bite me frequently. No blood in there. It's nice and green. Man did that freak me out first time I saw that. Lol.

 

[Dr O]

xim, check your PM and let me know.

dr.o-

 

[Dr O]

hi Xim, (and ANYONE who ever reads this)

diagnostics across the Internet are terrible to do, often wrong, and sometimes dangerous. with that said, imo she (i don't think i know her name?) is in a pretty serious situation right now. the list of things i know of and/or have seen that cause a uniltareal nosebleed does not have too many nice things on it except for a dry little nosebleeds from low humidity, but i don't think that's her issue right now.

the diseases that will primarily cause this in chams are partial or full obstruction of the nasal canal/sinuses, or a systemic (bodywide) disease which is causing inappropriate bleeding as one of the secondary consequences (DIC/various anemias).

obstructions are typically from foreign bodies, but as a chameleon's nasal passage is so minuscule, it would be difficult for anything of any consequence to get up there. so we have to consider something that started growing on the inside rather than have come in from the outside. typically we see growths from neoplasia (cancer), a fungal disease, a parasite, or some irritating situation that causes a granuloma to form and grow.

systemic diseases that get bad enough to affect the body's ability to clot properly and cause spontaneous bleeds (in addition to blood clots, internally), tend to be the flip side of the coin. and literally almost any disease has the capability for this to happen, but usually it tends to be something drastically serious.

so again, imo, she's got something not very good going on. i don't believe stress is her primary issue, but i will definitely promise you that stress still is a factor here. i'm going to be honest and let you know from what you described that there are enough defecits in her heating, lighting, and humidity that they are currently not a healthy environement for her, and may have even predisposed this situation to happen. no matter what happens, you can still take care of her or maybe another cham even better.

it's your call what you want to do, but doing bloodwork and/or an xray right now and getting her on medication may save her life. it may not. maybe you want to just know what happened to see if it was unavoidable, or if if maybe it came from something you did so you know not to do again. i do think that if you don't try to intervene with veterinary care, either she may go very quickly on us, or she will continue on for some time but eventually succumb to the situation.

i hope this reads ok; it's a bit weird to try and speak exam room on a keyboard. but i know that i and most people who will read this do because we care a lot about chameleons, and that includes yours. i just hope this helps you and/and some other people, somewhere.

dr.o-

 

[Xim]

I just wanted to update. Her light is a 5.0 uv I checked. And the black light is a night heat light so she doesn't get chilled. She thermotegulates herself well. I could change to a reg white light but what would I use for night heat? It's not cold in there but shouldn't she have the option. As she does tend to sleep by the heat.

I have only had her 24 days. Do u think this could have been a pre existing condition or something I caused.

Is there anyway to flush the sinus?
Would blood work help? What could it show?
I can do a fecal ( I have equipment and microscope)
An X-ray may be more stressful then helpful at this point yes?
I'm not apposed to bringing her to a vet but I don't want to expose her to more stress then nesecary.

I want to thank everyone for your help.
Dr. O. I very much appreciate your input and knowledge. I wish u were local.

I will continue giving her water via pipett and monitoring her temps and humidity closely. My husband and I are working on how to free range her.

We also have a Jackson's that is doing very well and seeks out our attention. We love both our chams very much. And we want only what's best for them.

 

[Olimpia]

I don't hear any confirmation of plans to go to the vet yet, and this worries me. When a professional tells you it could be a systemic infection, cancer, or any number of other conditions that you simply can't treat at home, I would have made an appointment yesterday. ANY medical attention from a vet is going to be more helpful than it is negative. And x-ray takes maybe 15 minutes to perform, typically, and what you see may help determine what direction to take with her care.

In my opinion, as someone who has had chameleons a few years (has had my share of medical emergencies with them that have required surgery, x-rays, etc.) and has worked at vet clinics and wildlife rehab centers, every day you wait longer to get professional attention on an issue like this diminishes the chances of her surviving.

 

[Xim]

I have an apt for X-ray at 3. And what ever else the vet thinks pertinent.

 

[Xim]

Let me out. I don't care if u are bringing me to feel better. I want outta here!!

 

[Xim]

Never mind. Put me back in!!!!! Waiting at the vets office.

 

[Xim]

Ok. Vet apt went better then expected especially cause chams are. Not legal in ma. . only 50$ and 30$ for antibiotics. And they said she looks great other then the swelling in her sinus. Most likely cancer. As dr o said. But running a course if antibiotics orally to see if it can bring it down. If not. Then no treatment options are promising or realistic.
Sadly. But she is calming and more active being out then at home. Wondering if she just enjoys being out in the sun and fresh air. Hmmm

 

[Picasso123]

I wouldn't have advised holding in the vets office. That's a pose of self defense. I just learned mine died today at the vet and he said Panther chameleons are not truly suited for New England due to lack of humidity during the winter. This maybe why they're illegal in MA.

 

[Murrdox]

??? I didn't know that Chameleons were illegal ANYWHERE. Is this true? I could see them being illegal to IMPORT, but illegal to own domestically captive-bred animals?

 

[Carlton]

I wouldn't have advised holding in the vets office. That's a pose of self defense. I just learned mine died today at the vet and he said Panther chameleons are not truly suited for New England due to lack of humidity during the winter. This maybe why they're illegal in MA.

First, I'm sorry to hear you lost your panther!

That being said, your vet's comment about panthers not being suited for New England could also be said for much of the USA. Low humidity is going to happen anywhere we actively need to heat our homes in winter or in the arid western states. There is hardly any place in N America that panthers would be "suited" for based on climate. It is up to the cham's owners to provide that specialized climate they need.

Chams may be illegal in many states but it's not because the state cares about their welfare. States tend to pass laws banning exotic animal ownership because they either want to make their own animal marketing regulations simpler (allowing domesticated species only), are trying to raise revenue by requiring permits to own exotics, don't want to promote private ownership of non-traditional pets (some animal-rights lobby got to them), don't want careless owners dumping unwanted pets in the wild (same idea behind the python ban), or because they just don't want to deal with the exotic animal business community at all.

 

[Olimpia]

I'm glad she went to the vet, although I'm saddened that it may be cancer. Hopefully something can be done, or she can at least be comfortable during the time she has left.

Picasso, we have site sponsors that have been breeding for years and years up in Canada. As long as you provide the temps and humidity they require in their cages, they could live anywhere. It may take more effort in Northern homes, but with misting, a humidifier, or adding solid sides to a screen cage, etc., it is certainly doable. I am so sorry you lost your chameleon, though.

 

[Carlton]

??? I didn't know that Chameleons were illegal ANYWHERE. Is this true? I could see them being illegal to IMPORT, but illegal to own domestically captive-bred animals?

Check this by state. It could be that the regulations actually state that it is illegal to keep chams without a permit issued by the state rather than totally illegal in any way. More and more states are opting to require permits for any type of exotic (non-domesticated) animal. And, just because the cham was cbb does not mean it is OK. They usually have a list of species they consider "domestic". You've got to check with your state specifically. I've lived in states that required my exotic birds and my herps to have state permits. I got them with little trouble or cost.

 

[Kibu]

Hey dr. O I live fairly close, how much are u charging 4 a panther check up?

 

[Xim]

Yes here in mass we have to have a permit to own our chams. Not a biggy.
And I was holding her cause she started swaying while in the carrier. There were no other animals around. This is how she is when I handle her.
She is settled on her free range now relaxing she had a horn worm with her anti biotics and is content now.

 

[Dr O]

i'm sorry to hear about the diagnosis, Xim---i hope going to the vet's office and confirming it helped to give you some peace.

dr. o-