Over Hydration

[Beman]

Not a vet

but increased CK and AST could be related to muscle damage or liver damage in the case of AST. Handling during venipuncture could increase CK I would think as well

I was told it was a "very difficult blood draw" so yes I expect he was very stressed.

 

[jamest0o0]

Okay if I'm following @PetNcs one thing I'll say regarding the subject, my chams urates have had part orangish and the end chalky white even with good hydration. I never saw all white as a problem though and figured the orange part was from less frequent poops as they get older. So now what you're saying is that it is a good sign to have some orange in the urate? Could this also have to do with supplements/feeders?

 

[PetNcs]

Okay if I'm following @PetNcs one thing I'll say regarding the subject, my chams urates have had part orangish and the end chalky white even with good hydration. I never saw all white as a problem though and figured the orange part was from less frequent poops as they get older. So now what you're saying is that it is a good sign to have some orange in the urate? Could this also have to do with supplements/feeders?

i say that in captivity, if the urate white/orange split is same as in the wild, I tend to believe it is good
Feeders I do not know but Repashy recepture might fakely color urates orange, as yiu know well

 

[jamest0o0]

i say that in captivity, if the urate white/orange split is same as in the wild, I tend to believe it is good
Feeders I do not know but Repashy recepture might fakely color urates orange, as yiu know well

Okay I gotcha. Do you think maybe it's just from adults pooping less?

 

[TimothyOnTop]

In my opinion recreating the animals exact conditions in the wild is not always beneficial i mean humans live in Phoenix Arizona but if we were in a cage we would certainly not want it to be 115 degrees during the day i think common sense has a lot to do with housing and caring for happy healthy enriched animals imo animals in the wild are often under hydrated most of the time so if course the urates are not going to be pure white but does this mean we should recreate drought like conditions to add color to the urates so they more closely resemble those of animals in the wild i think not but that is just my opinion

 

[jamest0o0]

In my opinion recreating the animals exact conditions in the wild is not always beneficial i mean humans live in Phoenix Arizona but if we were in a cage we would certainly not want it to be 115 degrees during the day i think common sense has a lot to do with housing and caring for happy healthy enriched animals imo animals in the wild are often under hydrated most of the time so if course the urates are not going to be pure white but does this mean we should recreate drought like conditions to add color to the urates so they more closely resemble those of animals in the wild i think not but that is just my opinion

Mostly agree, but just something to consider... Adult or really any chams that poop less often will sometimes have half and half. A partially dehydrated cham will show some orange throughout, there won't be an end of it that is chalky white. If that makes sense.

So, at least from what I understand...

Slightly dehydrated=uniformly orangeish
Normal=chalky white end to it even if a large chunk of it is orange(which I usually notice when a cham doesn't poop as frequently)

 

[PetNcs]

Okay I gotcha. Do you think maybe it's just from adults pooping less?

Hard tonsay
Juveniles are growth machines, they do not loom left or right and simply race for growth

 

[PetNcs]

In my opinion recreating the animals exact conditions in the wild is not always beneficial i mean humans live in Phoenix Arizona but if we were in a cage we would certainly not want it to be 115 degrees during the day i think common sense has a lot to do with housing and caring for happy healthy enriched animals imo animals in the wild are often under hydrated most of the time so if course the urates are not going to be pure white but does this mean we should recreate drought like conditions to add color to the urates so they more closely resemble those of animals in the wild i think not but that is just my opinion

I have never said that We should eecreate ALL dactors
EXZCTLY as in the wild. i do not onow why always leople try to pit this into my mouth.
I say that for me the best naturallistic approach in chameleonoculture is: simulate meaningfully vital factors and eliminate lethal ones.
From this perspective, yes, I believe we should simulate meaningfully periods of water abundance and leriods of water shortage. But this is not what this debate is actually about. We do not talk about exposing them to drought, we talk about adjusting water intake in a way that resembles natural intake levels And Natural water household as observed in the wild. Nothing more and nothing less. So, You should control the water household of your Chamaeleon and once you find out he is over hydrated you should shorten it and if you find out he is dehydrated you should make it more abundant and adjust according to your conditions and possibilities

I do not understand your note about 115° because this temperature definitely the Yemen xhameleons do never experience in the wild

 

[TimothyOnTop]

Maybe you should read my post again i said just because PEOPLE live in Phoenix az doesn't mean if people were in a cage we would want it 115 degrees but maybe it want clear it maybe it was and you should read slower and i didn't put any words in your mouth i said in my opinion i don't think it's important for urates to look exactly like their wild counter parts to be honest i didn't even read your earlier post i was just stating my opinion that is what imo meant fyi (for your information)

 

[MissSkittles]

This thread has me greatly confused. I respect @PetNcs and all of the work he has done and continues to do to demystify the world of chameleons. However, if I were to perfectly recreate the natural habitat and conditions for my veiled chameleons, they would have dehydrated to death months ago (as they do in the wild). They can not communicate to me when they are thirsty so I provide them with opportunities to drink as well as opportunities not to drink (areas protected from mister spray). I have seen them move from one area to the other, either to avoid the misting or towards it to grab a drink (while I’m not looking of course) or clean their eyes. I also provide them a basking and uvb area along with a shaded area and different temperature gradients for them to choose what they want or need. I do very often see them utilizing these various areas. Am I not to trust that the animals are able to determine what their needs and limits are and act to fulfill them appropriately?
Regarding an all white urate, my bearded dragon eats primarily crickets, barely eats his salads and my attempts to provide him a water source in his tank were completely rejected by him. Humidity stays below 45%...usually below 40%. Yet his urates are always pure white and always accompanied by a good amount of fluid. How am I overhydrating him?
As I said, I’m very confused.

 

[JoXie411]

I loled. Went from resistant to wishing death on the highway... it's like the path to the dark side

 

[DocZ]

I take the liberty to slightly and respectfully disagree.
The point is, in many species, there is no evilutionary reason to prevent overhydration, because there is almost never too
Much water in The environment.

animals can only regullate what they have been exposed to evolutionarily. They can not be lrepared on someting in advance. This is how evolution works. Exposure is the name if the game
Not wisdom of adaptability.

this is why Veileds and Mellers overhydrate (and Calumma brevicorne does not)
Thisnis why montanes kill themselves by overbasking (and panthers do not)
Thisnis why savannah species overfeed terribly (and parsons do not)
All in caltivity,
Never in The wild

they have not learned to regulate in their evolution

There may be no evolutionary process, but there is a physiological process that prevents over hydration in healthy animals

the circulatory, hepatic, renal, and endocrine systems are designed to prevent it

 

[Beman]

This is the urate of my Male Veiled that is 2 years old. This is after two days of reducing my fogging by an hour to only 3 hours at night.

Is this better since it is now formed? Or is this still considered over hydration? @PetNcs

 

[PetNcs]

This thread has me greatly confused. I respect @PetNcs and all of the work he has done and continues to do to demystify the world of chameleons. However, if I were to perfectly recreate the natural habitat and conditions for my veiled chameleons, they would have dehydrated to death months ago (as they do in the wild). They can not communicate to me when they are thirsty so I provide them with opportunities to drink as well as opportunities not to drink (areas protected from mister spray). I have seen them move from one area to the other, either to avoid the misting or towards it to grab a drink (while I’m not looking of course) or clean their eyes. I also provide them a basking and uvb area along with a shaded area and different temperature gradients for them to choose what they want or need. I do very often see them utilizing these various areas. Am I not to trust that the animals are able to determine what their needs and limits are and act to fulfill them appropriately?
Regarding an all white urate, my bearded dragon eats primarily crickets, barely eats his salads and my attempts to provide him a water source in his tank were completely rejected by him. Humidity stays below 45%...usually below 40%. Yet his urates are always pure white and always accompanied by a good amount of fluid. How am I overhydrating him?
As I said, I’m very confused.

How can I help you?
Btw chameleons do not clean their eyes bexause they like it they clean them bexause you soray the water i ti them during misting

 

[PetNcs]

There may be no evolutionary process, but there is a physiological process that prevents over hydration in healthy animals

the circulatory, hepatic, renal, and endocrine systems are designed to prevent it

we are talking about the practice in captivity here
No of the physiologocal
Processes can prevent overhydration in animals. It can only try to ballance it back and bring back to homrostasis when it happens.
If excess water is offerd or forced to animals, they WILL simply take too much water in and short time, no of these skow, reaction-based mechanisms will do anything with it at the very moment. I protest against the word prevent as they can not prevent anything. They can regulate, fix, balance but not prevent. The proof is: oberhydration happens.
It can happen forceful way - like induce the “stralth drinking” so propagated by the late Trevor Neufeld even supported by video material, they can get overhydrate by corcumstances or negligence thtouhj excessive water offer (too long fogging, excessive misting,
Misting when the water covers nostrils and mouth at same time etc)

Once again, animals living in an environment of
Permanent water shortage are
Pre-programmed by evolution to fo water intake whenever itnis possible
And as in the wild an excessive intake
Never happens, they will NOT be aBle to prevent overhydration
Bexause they do nothave am
Evolutionsry experience what it is.
same as outnimmune system
Can not act against totally inknown getms e.g.

 

[PetNcs]

This is the urate of my Male Veiled that is 2 years old. This is after two days of reducing my fogging by an hour to only 3 hours at night.

Is this better since it is now formed? Or is this still considered over hydration? @PetNcs

View attachment 275423

Itnis better but not good.
Note animals are living sustems, the reactions
Show a
Certain delay amd need time, so be patient and allow the animal to adapt.
The reaxtion will be not immediate

 

[Beman]

Itnis better but not good.
Note animals are living sustems, the reactions
Show a
Certain delay amd need time, so be patient and allow the animal to adapt.
The reaxtion will be not immediate

I was going to leave it at the 3 hour duration for fogging for a full week before making any further adjustments. But there is a form to it now rather then runny. So I take that as being a step in the right direction.

 

[DocZ]

we are talking about the practice in captivity here
No of the physiologocal
Processes can prevent overhydration in animals. It can only try to ballance it back and bring back to homrostasis when it happens.
If excess water is offerd or forced to animals, they WILL simply take too much water in and short time, no of these skow, reaction-based mechanisms will do anything with it at the very moment. I protest against the word prevent as they can not prevent anything. They can regulate, fix, balance but not prevent. The proof is: oberhydration happens.
It can happen forceful way - like induce the “stralth drinking” so propagated by the late Trevor Neufeld even supported by video material, they can get overhydrate by corcumstances or negligence thtouhj excessive water offer (too long fogging, excessive misting,
Misting when the water covers nostrils and mouth at same time etc)

Once again, animals living in an environment of
Permanent water shortage are
Pre-programmed by evolution to fo water intake whenever itnis possible
And as in the wild an excessive intake
Never happens, they will NOT be aBle to prevent overhydration
Bexause they do nothave am
Evolutionsry experience what it is.
same as outnimmune system
Can not act against totally inknown getms e.g.

So you argue that chameleons lack any evolutionary adaptations to deal with hypervolemia?

apologies, but none of us would be here talking about them because they’d all be extinct

 

[TimothyOnTop]

we are talking about the practice in captivity here
No of the physiologocal
Processes can prevent overhydration in animals. It can only try to ballance it back and bring back to homrostasis when it happens.
If excess water is offerd or forced to animals, they WILL simply take too much water in and short time, no of these skow, reaction-based mechanisms will do anything with it at the very moment. I protest against the word prevent as they can not prevent anything. They can regulate, fix, balance but not prevent. The proof is: oberhydration happens.
It can happen forceful way - like induce the “stralth drinking” so propagated by the late Trevor Neufeld even supported by video material, they can get overhydrate by corcumstances or negligence thtouhj excessive water offer (too long fogging, excessive misting,
Misting when the water covers nostrils and mouth at same time etc)

Once again, animals living in an environment of
Permanent water shortage are
Pre-programmed by evolution to fo water intake whenever itnis possible
And as in the wild an excessive intake
Never happens, they will NOT be aBle to prevent overhydration
Bexause they do nothave am
Evolutionsry experience what it is.
same as outnimmune system
Can not act against totally inknown getms e.g.

I agree completely ?