Over Hydration

[PetNcs]

TMK, chameleons don't absorb much—if any—moisture through their skin; about the same as humans do for moisturizing, and that's about it. If any hyperhydration were to occur, it would have to be via drinking.

Unless forced, I'm skeptable [sic].

L
correct
actually partly correct only

the skin is so impermeable rhat it does not allow water getting inside in measureable quantities

the only way how to het hydrated via drinking? This statement is false

because they can get hydrated while feeding (decent amount of wayer in the feeders)

they can gain some metabolic wayer (check the Krebs’ cycle - H2O is a byproduct)

AND they can gain water by BREATHING (which they widely do) and this is why fogging is so crucial

 

[PetNcs]

I see your point on the animals not Always properly interpreting and avoiding dangerous stimuli. But if you limit exposure to dangerous levels within the enclosure there’s less risk. For example, not allowing excessive levels of UVI anywhere within the cage avoids UVI overexposure, raising heat lamps so that too high of heat Is not accessible avoids burns, You could theoretically over hydrate with fog at night or with misting during the day, but the Renal physiology of the animal will filter out excess water.

In some cases however we know they do self-regulate. Dr Ferguson Showed Panthers adjusted their exposure to UVB to regulate vitamin D3
https://www.researchgate.net/public...to_UV_Depending_on_Dietary_Vitamin_D-3_Status

here I agree with the Beginning but not with the previous statement

i do not want to get deeper in the debate but ai consider this oaoer if Derguson et al as extremely weak both in methodology as well
As in reaults
And I do NOT buy their conclusions which ai consider biased by their own pre-believs and methodology

 

[PetNcs]

“
Then an opinionated idiot from Easyer Ejrope comes and start to shout on the well established community that it does wrong. Of course there is reaistance as in almosg all revolutionary ideas I come with.
reaistance
Hate
Blocking me
Calling me names
Wishing me death while crossing Highway
Then some
People start listening and step by step the community opens...
And the. Some issues become standard forgetting how much blood was wasted fie nothing at the beginning
LOL”

where is this coming from?

from me and from the chameleon
Community, makor impact has done always Chameleon Cwntral Facebook group

 

[DocZ]

here I agree with the Beginning but not with the previous statement

i do not want to get deeper in the debate but ai consider this oaoer if Derguson et al as extremely weak both in methodology as well
As in reaults
And I do NOT buy their conclusions which ai consider biased by their own pre-believs and methodology

Happy to leave it here as well. Many others consider Dr Ferguson’s research pretty important including Dr Baines who seems to have a lot of experience in this field
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...wjzarorg-jzar-a.pdf?origin=publication_detail

 

[DocZ]

from me and from the chameleon
Community, makor impact has done always Chameleon Cwntral Facebook group

I’m very new to all of this Petr, and I find your contributions very interesting. I have no problems with people shaking things up. It keeps things interesting and hopefully advances the community, but you can’t get angry and think you’re being attacked when people enter into discussion on these topics

 

[Beman]

@DeremensisBlue Mr. Strand can you please assist with some explanation because I am slightly dumb founded here. I follow natural hydration. I mist only in the morning prior to heat lamp and after the heat lamp has kicked off. 2 minutes in the morning and 3 in the evening when temps in the cage have cooled. I also fog at night from 12-4am when my temps in the enclosures are at their coolest always below 68 degrees.

Both of my Veiled chameleons produce white urates that are not formed. So now I am being told that this is a sign of over hydration.... I would like to know what I am actually aiming for here. As I work extremely hard to not only provide the optimal larger then recommended environment but proper temps, live plants, real branches, humidity and temperature gradients, proper diverse diet, diverse fresh gutload, correct supplementation, and natural hydration.

Now hearing that they are over hydrated... And I am at a loss because they never drink when I mist so my hydration is from fogging. Can you please expand on the thought process here and provide feedback?

 

[jamest0o0]

Entitlement

I loled. Went from resistant to wishing death on the highway... it's like the path to the dark side

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

ask yourself who was it to introduce the policy of white urates? Or legend or myth or shit.
It were VETs that have never ever seen a wild animal and they did not do rigorous studies on that. Just ised their formal authkrity. And then it was oarrottwd for decades.

Do you realize that you just disrespected an entire medical profession categorically, and then went off on a paranoid rant complaining about being disrespected?

This isn't calling you names; it's an observation about language and demeanor.

But please don't unequivocally state that studies have not been done, nor animals studied in the wild. It makes you sound foolish and ignorant.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,33&q=reptile+urates&btnG=
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,33&q=chameleon+studies&btnG=
veterinary studies in the wild

I am not calling you foolish or ignorant; I'm saying that some of your own statements make you sound that way.

I also think the Beardie Vet (among others whose names I don't have ATM, but I know are out there doing the work) would take exception.
https://www.facebook.com/BeardieVet/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCELNIBkew8AwhVGzg5OYWGQ/featured
He is, IMO, just one example of a veterinarian who is out there studying animals in the wild.

If you have such rigorous peer-reviewed studies to support your contentions, then please cite them.
Otherwise, statements like you've made above sound like ravings, which does little to earn credence or respect.

I have no dog in this fight—no side or position in any debate. I'm reading (listening to) all sides in order to learn and understand, as others here are doing.

 

[jamest0o0]

Intry to explain all the time that high humidity and fog is not the same
low humidity desiccates
High humidity keeps the hydragion level at same
Fog hydrates

i will ounlish my findings soon, they are in print already

So you're telling me every chameleon species is sitting in dense fog, night after night? I do know some areas are foggy, as is mine, but I doubt it is at the same level as an ultrasonic humidifier blowing on them for 5 hrs straight???

 

[PetNcs]

Happy to leave it here as well. Many others consider Dr Ferguson’s research pretty important including Dr Baines who seems to have a lot of experience in this field
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...wjzarorg-jzar-a.pdf?origin=publication_detail

I speak about this one article, that would not pass through my hands if ai was the one to peer review it, the wirk of GF is acknowledgeable and of great importance without any doubt.

 

[PetNcs]

So you're telling me every chameleon species is sitting in dense fog, night after night? I do know some areas are foggy, as is mine, but I doubt it is at the same level as an ultrasonic humidifier blowing on them for 5 hrs straight???

I asked you not to twist my words!!!
Habe I stated this one somewhere?
Habe I stated that it is same as ultrasonic
Himidifier blowing on them?
I kindly ask for respectful debate or ai will ignore your questions


NO, of course there are differences and variations, but it is a general pattern for chameleons within their family range and frequent presence fog/mist in their night seems to determine their distribution.
It absolutely applies to calyptratus, to all montanes, to dense forest dweller as well as savannah soecies that are nit that mich savannah species as riverbed and mountain-feet-soecies than confined to savannah, even C namaquesnsis sits at night in Mist!
It seems tk apply to their active periods very significantly.

 

[Highway61]

from me and from the chameleon
Community, makor impact has done always Chameleon Cwntral Facebook group

Petr, I did not start this thread so you could make it about yourself and your private Facebook group. You peeked my interest in this subjuct from another thread and I was soaking up yours and everyone else's replies, thanks! Personally, I'm fascinated with your broad travels and experience that you continue to share here, but please edit/omit the unecessary and unprovoked drama.

 

[Beman]

Ok just re listened and re read this https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/ @DeremensisBlue

Here is an excerpt from it directly talking about over hydration. So now I guess we are at a point of what is too much? In my case it is too much based on both @PetNcs and what Bill Strand Says here...

I guess what I want to know is, am I understanding correctly that I now need to adjust time of fogging and or reducing the fog output to then get a urate that is properly formed and 15-50% orange?

Next is to determine the limits. If you are experimenting with UVB levels then your limits may be the beginnings of Metabolic Bone Disease on one end and sunburn on the other. If you are working with supplementations you have Metabolic Bone Disease, eye infections, and a downward crash of health on the not-enough end and on the too-much end you have Metabolic Bone Disease, eye infections, and a downward crash of health. So, yeah, don’t screw up that one. In my case, I have dehydration on the not enough-end and over-hydration on the too-much end. No matter what the chances are that I will hit those levels I need to be consciously aware of what they are and what the signs of them are. We are pretty familiar with dehydration. The skin starts to look gaunt, the eye turrets sink in, and, when offered water, your chameleon will lap it up with urgency – well, at least the slow chameleon version of urgency. A healthy, hydrated chameleon does not go to water. They let water come to them. Dehydration will be my primary concern during my incorporation of new techniques. The other limit is over-hydration.


wait…over hydration? That’s a thing? We have all been battling dehydration so much we didn’t even consider over hydration.


I am afraid, like food, supplements, UVB, and anything else going into the body, there can be too little and too much water intake. And for us to truly be effective in evaluating new methods of anything we need to understand the extremes. So, even though over-hydration is not a common occurrence we need to do our due diligence and understand what it looks like.


Over hydration also takes a toll. The body bloats and the chameleon struggles to hold its body upright. It will take on an overweight appearance. Over-hydration could happen if the chameleon is placed in a spray of water and has no way of getting out. Though they can stop drinking there is a reflexive drinking process where water will come in through the nostrils and the chameleon could take it in. As a daily occurrence this could, conceivably, be an issue. Now you may be scoffing at the odds against you thinking this could happen. But this exercise is not about convincing anyone of the likelihood of these happening, it is you coming up with every possible scenario that either of the extremes could be reached and watching out for them.


Perhaps our most important preparation for this experiment is to establish a measurement guide that we can use to get an idea on how hydrated our chameleons is from day to day.


So we need a measurement systems to watch our progress and use it as a guide to tell us when we need to make corrections. And we find those in feces and urates. The feces are the compressed brown portion of the poop. The urates are the white and orange portion.


Feces and urates are the results of the processing of all the food input. Everything the body needs from the food is removed in the stomach and intestines. What remains is the indigestible parts that will be compressed together in a tight, typically brown package to be jettisoned later. But there is another part to the waste process. The kidneys are also hard at work to filter the blood and keep it clean. In us humans, urine is produced to carry these toxins out of the body. In chameleons, a white sludge called urates is produced and tacked onto the fecal waste for the upcoming exit. As we experience ourselves, water is a necessary component for this processing and the amount of water in the urine and feces fluctuates with our hydration level. So too it is with chameleons – and this is our chance!


Water is used in the chameleon kidneys to produce the urates. The urates then go through the intestines and this is where the chameleon reclaims the water so as to not waste precious moisture. The amount of water reclaimed from the urates varies depending on the hydration level of the chameleon. The drier the environment and the more water is needed, the more water is sucked back out. When water is removed, the urates crystallize into an orangish colored substance. From field observation (P. Necas, pers comm), normal content of orange in the urates is 15 to 50% of the urates. If there is greater orange content then the chameleon’s body is wanting more moisture back and that is a sign that we need to provide more hydration in the appropriate form. If the urates are totally white then the body has more than enough moisture and Is actually rejecting the normal water reclaiming process. In this way, the urates can give us a window into our chameleon’s hydration level. Of course, nothing can be simple. How much orange should be present is subject of debate. It is common for veterinarians to advise to hydrate until urates are completely white. The logic is that if the body does not extract any water it doesn’t need to and your chameleon is hydrated. But this isn’t what is observed in the wild. So do we target our hydration to what is observed in the wild or do we decide to give it the ole superior conditions approach that we like to do in captivity to make our super specimens? And I fully admit that my personal decision to target up to 50% orange in the urates is based on the field observations of Petr Necas. And there really isn’t much more. He is one of the few field scientists that keep captive husbandry and field observations in mind at the same time to determine their relationships. I have asked a number of other field scientists and apparently, they had better things to do than observe the composition of wild urates. So, admittedly, the data sources are limited. In this case, which do you choose to trust? It is really up to you. Both measurement scales have been in use and neither has left bodies of chameleons in the streets. So, it is a subtle effect. But it is an important issue to consider.

 

[DocZ]

Ok just re listened and re read this https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/ep-89-naturalistic-hydration-for-chameleons/ @DeremensisBlue

Here is an excerpt from it directly talking about over hydration. So now I guess we are at a point of what is too much? In my case it is too much based on both @PetNcs and what Bill Strand Says here...

I guess what I want to know is, am I understanding correctly that I now need to adjust time of fogging and or reducing the fog output to then get a urate that is properly formed and 15-50% orange?

Next is to determine the limits. If you are experimenting with UVB levels then your limits may be the beginnings of Metabolic Bone Disease on one end and sunburn on the other. If you are working with supplementations you have Metabolic Bone Disease, eye infections, and a downward crash of health on the not-enough end and on the too-much end you have Metabolic Bone Disease, eye infections, and a downward crash of health. So, yeah, don’t screw up that one. In my case, I have dehydration on the not enough-end and over-hydration on the too-much end. No matter what the chances are that I will hit those levels I need to be consciously aware of what they are and what the signs of them are. We are pretty familiar with dehydration. The skin starts to look gaunt, the eye turrets sink in, and, when offered water, your chameleon will lap it up with urgency – well, at least the slow chameleon version of urgency. A healthy, hydrated chameleon does not go to water. They let water come to them. Dehydration will be my primary concern during my incorporation of new techniques. The other limit is over-hydration.


wait…over hydration? That’s a thing? We have all been battling dehydration so much we didn’t even consider over hydration.


I am afraid, like food, supplements, UVB, and anything else going into the body, there can be too little and too much water intake. And for us to truly be effective in evaluating new methods of anything we need to understand the extremes. So, even though over-hydration is not a common occurrence we need to do our due diligence and understand what it looks like.


Over hydration also takes a toll. The body bloats and the chameleon struggles to hold its body upright. It will take on an overweight appearance. Over-hydration could happen if the chameleon is placed in a spray of water and has no way of getting out. Though they can stop drinking there is a reflexive drinking process where water will come in through the nostrils and the chameleon could take it in. As a daily occurrence this could, conceivably, be an issue. Now you may be scoffing at the odds against you thinking this could happen. But this exercise is not about convincing anyone of the likelihood of these happening, it is you coming up with every possible scenario that either of the extremes could be reached and watching out for them.


Perhaps our most important preparation for this experiment is to establish a measurement guide that we can use to get an idea on how hydrated our chameleons is from day to day.


So we need a measurement systems to watch our progress and use it as a guide to tell us when we need to make corrections. And we find those in feces and urates. The feces are the compressed brown portion of the poop. The urates are the white and orange portion.


Feces and urates are the results of the processing of all the food input. Everything the body needs from the food is removed in the stomach and intestines. What remains is the indigestible parts that will be compressed together in a tight, typically brown package to be jettisoned later. But there is another part to the waste process. The kidneys are also hard at work to filter the blood and keep it clean. In us humans, urine is produced to carry these toxins out of the body. In chameleons, a white sludge called urates is produced and tacked onto the fecal waste for the upcoming exit. As we experience ourselves, water is a necessary component for this processing and the amount of water in the urine and feces fluctuates with our hydration level. So too it is with chameleons – and this is our chance!


Water is used in the chameleon kidneys to produce the urates. The urates then go through the intestines and this is where the chameleon reclaims the water so as to not waste precious moisture. The amount of water reclaimed from the urates varies depending on the hydration level of the chameleon. The drier the environment and the more water is needed, the more water is sucked back out. When water is removed, the urates crystallize into an orangish colored substance. From field observation (P. Necas, pers comm), normal content of orange in the urates is 15 to 50% of the urates. If there is greater orange content then the chameleon’s body is wanting more moisture back and that is a sign that we need to provide more hydration in the appropriate form. If the urates are totally white then the body has more than enough moisture and Is actually rejecting the normal water reclaiming process. In this way, the urates can give us a window into our chameleon’s hydration level. Of course, nothing can be simple. How much orange should be present is subject of debate. It is common for veterinarians to advise to hydrate until urates are completely white. The logic is that if the body does not extract any water it doesn’t need to and your chameleon is hydrated. But this isn’t what is observed in the wild. So do we target our hydration to what is observed in the wild or do we decide to give it the ole superior conditions approach that we like to do in captivity to make our super specimens? And I fully admit that my personal decision to target up to 50% orange in the urates is based on the field observations of Petr Necas. And there really isn’t much more. He is one of the few field scientists that keep captive husbandry and field observations in mind at the same time to determine their relationships. I have asked a number of other field scientists and apparently, they had better things to do than observe the composition of wild urates. So, admittedly, the data sources are limited. In this case, which do you choose to trust? It is really up to you. Both measurement scales have been in use and neither has left bodies of chameleons in the streets. So, it is a subtle effect. But it is an important issue to consider.

Nice work going through this. Question could be would these wild animals prefer to be 15% orange given the opportunity, or all white? They will access water when truly thirsty
It’s certainly possible to provide more than they need to avoid dehydration, but If the animal has functioning heart, Liver, and kidneys, they will excrete excess water

 

[PetNcs]

Petr, I did not start this thread so you could make it about yourself and your private Facebook group. You peeked my interest in this subjuct from another thread and I was soaking up yours and everyone else's replies, thanks! Personally, I'm fascinated with your broad travels and experience that you continue to share here, but please edit/omit the unecessary and unprovoked drama.

1. did not say any word about my private FB group
2. I share as much as I can and am more than I should
3. Rhe experience I shared about the rigidity of communitiapplies to CF very similarly as to FB

I did not intend to create drama just to amke a remark how hard it is sometimes to get through with positife things

 

[Beman]

Nice work going through this. Question could be would these wild animals prefer to be 15% orange given the opportunity, or all white? They will access water when truly thirsty
It’s certainly possible to provide more than they need to avoid dehydration, but If the animal has functioning heart, Liver, and kidneys, they will excrete excess water

I suppose my additional question pertains to the bloating.... So I have had full bloodwork done on Beman because he had slight swelling in his front arms. Everything came back really good and gout was totally ruled out. Then the levels that were raised in the blood work was the AST and Creatine Kinase levels... Could have been elevated due to the stress of the blood draw or a fall he took from screen climbing in his enclosure a week prior. It was a minor fall and he landed on the bottom screen of the enclosure. So now reading all of this I am wondering if the issue is linked to over hydration.

So this is why I really would like some clear answers. Maybe @PetNcs could tell me if this was a possibility. As the swelling has not reduced. He still is just as active as always and does not seem to be bothered by the swollen front arms.

 

[PetNcs]

Nice work going through this. Question could be would these wild animals prefer to be 15% orange given the opportunity, or all white? They will access water when truly thirsty
It’s certainly possible to provide more than they need to avoid dehydration, but If the animal has functioning heart, Liver, and kidneys, they will excrete excess water

I can answer this for you
I have never seen pure white urates in the wild
Even in the middle of eainy season, when the water is abundant, at least in 20 species, I observed urates within the rage mentioned. I repeat when watwr was abundant in all forms it xan be taken in naturally
Rain
Dew
Food
Fog
Still 15-50 orange

 

[PetNcs]

I suppose my additional question pertains to the bloating.... So I have had full bloodwork done on Beman because he had slight swelling in his front arms. Everything came back really good and gout was totally ruled out. Then the levels that were raised in the blood work was the AST and Creatine Kinase levels... Could have been elevated due to the stress of the blood draw or a fall he took from screen climbing in his enclosure a week prior. It was a minor fall and he landed on the bottom screen of the enclosure. So now reading all of this I am wondering if the issue is linked to over hydration.

So this is why I really would like some clear answers. Maybe @PetNcs could tell me if this was a possibility. As the swelling has not reduced. He still is just as active as always and does not seem to be bothered by the swollen front arms.

I would love to answer but withkut seeing the animal and seing the reaults if yiur blodwork. i am blindfolded. Maybe thins more for a private chat?
The swelling of forearms only is quite rare btw, do you have an xray as well? I am chtious and glad to help if my Payheade will be enough

 

[DocZ]

I suppose my additional question pertains to the bloating.... So I have had full bloodwork done on Beman because he had slight swelling in his front arms. Everything came back really good and gout was totally ruled out. Then the levels that were raised in the blood work was the AST and Creatine Kinase levels... Could have been elevated due to the stress of the blood draw or a fall he took from screen climbing in his enclosure a week prior. It was a minor fall and he landed on the bottom screen of the enclosure. So now reading all of this I am wondering if the issue is linked to over hydration.

So this is why I really would like some clear answers. Maybe @PetNcs could tell me if this was a possibility. As the swelling has not reduced. He still is just as active as always and does not seem to be bothered by the swollen front arms.

Not a vet

but increased CK and AST could be related to muscle damage or liver damage in the case of AST. Handling during venipuncture could increase CK I would think as well

 

[Beman]

I would love to answer but withkut seeing the animal and seing the reaults if yiur blodwork. i am blindfolded. Maybe thins more for a private chat?
The swelling of forearms only is quite rare btw, do you have an xray as well? I am chtious and glad to help if my Payheade will be enough

I would very much appreciate your feedback and will private message you the bloodwork.

I did not do an xray because the vet wanted to sedate him and tape him down. He was extremely stressed for days after just getting the blood work. Fecal came back negative.