Outdoor enclosures?

[critterguy]

Does anyone here have any experience or ability to advise on outdoor enclosures for chameleons? I am in LA County and wonder if Jackson's chameleon would be doable(I understand feral populations have been found in Morro Bay, SLO, and LA County).

On the other hand...do people here who keep chams indoors ever try taking them outdoors on supervised visits for natural sun exposure? Of course you would keep close watch on the temperature and not in direct sun.

 

[Chamero]

Yes it is possible to do outdoors...but difficult..im still making mine from a while ago and keep running into many problems... During winter its too cold and summer too hot... I had to install a heat lamp for the winter and a mini a/c for summer. I also have 1/4 glass, 1/4 glass/screen and 1/2 screen... It is possible..you just have to watch temps all year round...which is why its taking me so long... I have to take measurements at dif points in the year...

P.S. A jackson would also be harder...

P.S.S. yes we do take them out for SUPERVISED play

 

[critterguy]

Hmm...what sp. have you been attempting in your enclosure? I've heard Jackson's can stand a wide range of temps(providing that things warm up again in the daytime as far as cool weather goes). Heat would be a problem but perhaps in a shaded area.

 

[djfunkshowkid]

...do people here who keep chams indoors ever try taking them outdoors on supervised visits for natural sun exposure? Of course you would keep close watch on the temperature and not in direct sun.

What is the problem with direct sun light? Isn't the natural UV's put off by the sun much better than anything that we could ever supply?

 

[Debmonster]

I keep my Jackson's outside 99% of the year. I bring them in when we have a cold snap where the sun doesn't poke through for a while. Otherwise they're outside. The don't eat as much during winter and summers I use a mister to keep the temps down and of course keep thier humidity up. They're in a place where they get morning sun and afternoon is shade...sometimes I move them for a quick warm up before the sun goes down. I've been doing it this way for 5 years with out a problem. The only problems I've had has been calcium deficiency with a female.

My history of putting any chameleon outside without a cage for "supervised visits" is not so good. It is so easy to get distracted and wahbam, they're gone (but really they're right in front of you). It's easier just to have an outdoor cage that you can put them in if you have to keep them indoors (but I don't recommend jackson's indoors unless you're a bit experienced with indoor jackson's )

 

[critterguy]

Are you implying Jackson's are easier to look after outdoors? How big of a cage? I'm guessing it has to be really good sized to allow them to thermoregulate in a wider temp range than indoors?

I think Santa Barbara has incredibly mild weather even for CA, though. What are your summer highs(and night lows) and winter lows(and daytime highs?)

 

[Chamero]

Yea, SB is a way different climate than OC. They are definately more humid and cooler temps. So if your OC, youll need to figure out a way to raise humidity and keep temps down in summer.

 

[slowfoot]

I kept my Jackson's out all year long in So Cal, so it can be done. And there are feral Jackson's populations down there as well.

A heavily planted enclosure that has some areas that are always shaded is your best bet. There are some shade-cloth type fabrics that are meant for use in greenhouses that can be draped or moved around as needed to provide proper shade (they'll still allow airflow to pass through, though). They really thrived outside in this type of set-up with frequent hose sprayings. In winter, I would bring them in on the coldest nights, but otherwise they were fine.

 

[critterguy]

Do you guys think veiled or Jackson's are more suitable for outdoor enclosures? It seems veils may have a wider temperature tolerance?

 

[critterguy]

Also, is UV lighting still necessary(perhaps for cloudy days?) I'm guessing for days when it fails to warm up enough a basking light would be necessary?

What about an enclosure next to a screen window?(again, with a way for the cham to find a cool place if he needs to).

 

[jojackson]

would you say this jackson needs more uv? seems pale to me.

Think theres something wrong with him too, his horn fell off

 

[slowfoot]

Outdoor chams won't need a UV light even on cloudy days. But a cham kept near a window screen will.

There are feral populations of both veileds and Jacksons in SoCal, so both species can be kept outdoors. The key is that your cage placement will vary depending on which species you keep. The feral chams can choose where they want to be in the environment, but your caged chams can't. So it's not really as simple as just picking any old space for your outdoor cage placement. You'll have to familiarize yourself with each species' requirements and then decide if you have what it takes to provide them in your yard. Some things to consider (this is just a random list):

1. How much sun does the spot get in the morning, midday, afternoon? This is probably the most important thing.

2. What about airflow and the surrounding environment? An enclosure up against a stucco wall is going to heat up a lot more than a cage that's nestled into bushes and trees. Also, consider how much person traffic or pet traffic will go near the cage - chams don't like constant interruptions.

3. What about cham safety? From both animals and people. Raccoons, possums, cats, and birds are all dangerous cham predators. So you're going to have to make your cage predator-proof. Also, make sure your cage is not visible to people who might want to steal a new pet. A good place to get ideas for predator-proof cages is to look up how people have made their chicken coops raccoon or fox-proof.

4. What about water? Don't build your cage in an area that's too far from any water spigots. I learned that one the hard way

5. Bigger is better. The more space you have, the more opportunity you have to create 'microhabitats' for your chams. They'll be better able to find a spot in the enclosure that is right for them: like lower down in the plants when it's hot out, or higher up on a basking branch when it's cooler.

6. Other random things I encountered: escape, wasps nests (which can look like a tasty snack to chams), feral chams fighting or trying to mate with my chams, etc.

 

[eisentrauti]

Outdoor chams won't need a UV light even on cloudy days. But a cham kept near a window screen will.

That isn't true

 

[slowfoot]

That isn't true

Why? UV penetrates clouds just fine. Plus, the number of cloudy days in SoCal are not going to really make a difference. And any window will be closed probably 50% of the time - it's best to supplement.

eta: I've kept multiple generations of Jacksons and veileds outside for more than 10 years without UV supplementation. If you have better data on why they might need UV outside, or why an inside cham kept near a window doesn't need it, then let me know - I'm perfectly willing to change my mind.

 

[eisentrauti]

Hi,

this isn't an attack. Until now it's just unproofed that they need the UV when the are kept inside. That's only the scientific point of view. But if chameleons are kept outdoors their chances to mate enlarge so it's quite good to keep them outside

Regards
Benny

 

[slowfoot]

Hi,

this isn't an attack. Until now it's just unproofed that they need the UV when the are kept inside. That's only the scientific point of view. But if chameleons are kept outdoors their chances to mate enlarge so it's quite good to keep them outside

Regards
Benny

Don't worry - I don't feel like I'm under attack. But I definitely disagree with your position on UV supplementation for inside animals. I think the evidence points to it being necessary.

 

[critterguy]

eisentrauti: It hasn't been proven that chams need UV light indoors by science(because science proves nothing ) But it has been heavily supported!(by science ) I have heard stories of other animals(i.e. anolis lizards,day geckos) which are commonly thought to need UV doing fine(well, living and breeding) indoors providing D3 is supplemented. However, UV is not just for the manufacture of D3...since many lizards can see into UV it could be psychologically important also. Anyhow, they get it in the wild...and here in this thread lets assume we are trying to provide the animals UV. If you want to discuss this topic further a seperate thread would be excellent.

Erin: Socal is a pretty big area. I am in Long Beach atm(home for me is Fresno, where I'm guessing veileds would do well for a good part of the year but would have to be brought indoors or moved to heavy shade during the summer(temps up to 110), and moved indoors with basking lamp/some UV in winter(40's).

Long Beach is relatively mild,(temps between 50-105) but the climate is sure different from say, Santa Barbara and Malibu, where fog rolls in regularly and temps stay lower. And LB is probably a better place to keep chams than, say, Riverside, Redlands, or other inland places where things are less mild.

I know in the wild chams experience cloudy days but I wonder after cold nights if a basking lamp might be advisable to allow them to warm up?

So would a cham kept near a window screen only need supplemental UV during cloudy days?

Thanks!

(also, I assume for all the aboe you are using monthly or so supplementation with Reptivite or similar and calcium w/o D3)

 

[slowfoot]

Erin: Socal is a pretty big area. I am in Long Beach atm(home for me is Fresno, where I'm guessing veileds would do well for a good part of the year but would have to be brought indoors or moved to heavy shade during the summer(temps up to 110), and moved indoors with basking lamp/some UV in winter(40's).

Long Beach is relatively mild,(temps between 50-105) but the climate is sure different from say, Santa Barbara and Malibu, where fog rolls in regularly and temps stay lower. And LB is probably a better place to keep chams than, say, Riverside, Redlands, or other inland places where things are less mild.

Hey! How do you know my name?

I've kept outdoor chams when I lived in Sacramento and Tustin (Southern Ca), and, you're right, they're very different environments. So obviously how you keep your chams is going to depend on where you live.

I'd say for veileds, on extremely hot days, they might just have to be hosed down and shaded, but I would definitely bring Jacksons inside. In Sac, I had indoor cages for extreme hot and cold weather for all my chams. They ended up spending most of the time outside, but it was a little trickier.

In SoCal, though, I kept them out all year - both Jacksons and veileds (and quads, but we're not really considering them). If we had random freak cold weather, I would sometimes get out an extension cords, ceramic heat lamps, and plastic covers to drape over the cages - keeping the heat lamps outside of the cages, but this would make a nice pocket of warm air near the top. On hot days, I hosed cages down and shaded according to the species. The only time I can remember bringing them in was when we had wildfires and the air was smokey.

So would a cham kept near a window screen only need supplemental UV during cloudy days?

I would provide UV all the time if the cham is indoors, but maybe I'm overly cautious.

(also, I assume for all the aboe you are using monthly or so supplementation with Reptivite or similar and calcium w/o D3)

Yes, more often for juveniles though.

 

[critterguy]

LOL, this is FK from caudata.org

Which sp. did you find easiest to cater to? Was it different depending on climate?

Did you think bringing out the basking lamps during cold winter days was necessary for the good health of the animals?(I know both veileds and Jackson's experience 40 degree weather in the wild...at least at night I wonder how much higher the day temps are during cold snaps in Yemen/Tanzania mountains). Also, what kinds of health problems did you see? I'm assuming you went through several generations with old ones dying of natural causes for the most part.

Also, how common are feral chams in Socal? I know Jackson's are reported from a few sites. Do you think most of the ones you saw were escaped pets(rather than actually breeding)? It'd be neato to find a chameleon living around here somewhere...

Hope this isn't too many questions. I've been fascinated by outdoor enclosures lately.
~Joseph

 

[slowfoot]

LOL, this is FK from caudata.org

Well, it's good to see you here

Which sp. did you find easiest to cater to? Was it different depending on climate?

I prefer Jacksons because I'm biased, but I'd definitely say that both species were much easier down in SoCal. If I ever lived in the Central Valley again, I'd probably only keep either veileds or panthers.

Did you think bringing out the basking lamps during cold winter days was necessary for the good health of the animals?(I know both veileds and Jackson's experience 40 degree weather in the wild...at least at night I wonder how much higher the day temps are during cold snaps in Yemen/Tanzania mountains).

Yes, at times because a cold chameleon doesn't want to eat. But the cold snaps never really lasted long enough to cause major problems.

Also, what kinds of health problems did you see? I'm assuming you went through several generations with old ones dying of natural causes for the most part.

Ooh, confession time! I think most deaths were due to old age. I had a female Jacksons die of edema from some sort of kidney problem that wasn't identified. My female quad died from mouth rot - she had a rubbed nose when I got her that never healed right, and it got severely infected after she dug a hole for eggs. Those are the ones that have causes I could point to. The rest of them, it's hard to say because most of my adult animals were purchased (probably wc), but they lived nice long lives until I just found them dead at some point. The veileds were CB: our original male lived 7 years and the female 6. We gave babies and juvies away, so I don't know what happened to them.

Also, how common are feral chams in Socal? I know Jackson's are reported from a few sites. Do you think most of the ones you saw were escaped pets(rather than actually breeding)? It'd be neato to find a chameleon living around here somewhere...

I think the veileds are mostly escaped pets. I caught four males over the years - they mostly show up at the female's cage or wanting to fight our male. They were all large, healthy adults. I've never seen a feral female veiled.

I know the Jacksons are a breeding colony, and I know who started it (by accident) - I got my female Jacksons from this person.

Hope this isn't too many questions. I've been fascinated by outdoor enclosures lately.

No problem.