Not a breeder, just an idea guy

[klangford]

First let me say I NEVER EVER plan to breed chams; I have enough trouble raising human children! (is Potty Mouth the same as mouth rot? )

Anyway - I joined in Dec 08 after mistakenly buying a Jackson's at PetSmart and discovering it was a no-win situation - that chapter is behind me. I've since purchased all the things necessary for a proper enclosure from www.flchams.com; sourced my crickets, roaches, worms, etc, and have secured misting via (www.mistking.com). Very soon I'll have a very pampered and spoiled cham to share my OCD with

While reading all the threads to educate myself about what may happen to my cham during its long life I can't help but stumble upon the myriad of threads regarding breeding. There is no shortage of opinions on containers but I consistently see reference to soil moisture. Moisture seems to be blamed for most of failed clutches. This makes think to myself, "Hmmmm, if moisture is so important - why aren't they using soil moisture meters and/or posting ideal soil moisture data?"

Again - I've taken the "I will never breed oath" so fear not - I'm just wondering why something so important is left to chance by the 'soil squeeze test' I've seen mentioned. If you consider each of us have very different grip strengths then when I squeeze a handful of soil it may yield no water yet another member may squeeze out a shot glass full. Isn't it possible to make this a bit less subjective? Why not establish a forum standard for soil moisture?

Note: My fear is that this is somewhere in another thread and I've neglected to find it so forgive me in advance.

I've searched and found soil Ph and moisture gauges from $11 - $40 with ridiculously expensive commercial units topping $400. I think the $40 unit seems to do the trick but again I'm not sure.

If you consider how important everyone feels digital hygrometers and thermometers for the enclosure, it seems that soil moisture should be given the same level of accuracy if possible.

Cheepy for $13

This one measures sunlight-Ph-Moisture for $40

I don't doubt many have been successful without such fancy gizmos but for the up and coming breeders I would think this is something they need to get right.

 

[BocaJan]

What a great idea! Can't wait to see if anyone uses these. After all, there are units to measure temp, humidity and UV and I know those are used.

Thanks Idea Guy

 

[Chuck G]

Thanks,anything to make our lives more complicated!

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

you know, dont make us say

the fact that you had to preface with " i wont ever breed " AKA i wont be your competition... leads me to believe you already have an answer

most of the time to find out what ideal moisture levels are you'll have to learn the hard way. that makes the information semi precious.

but really, would you go to better crockers forum and ask her what her recipe for her money making cookies are?

personally i share anything i know, and often times expect people to give me such information when i ask, when i shouldn't expect.

but its not just that, there are moisture level and ranges to all things concerned with incubating eggs. not all of its first hand, not all of its prooven. but either way there is no golden set of numbers, different specs work for diff eggs.

there is a lot more to hatching than just temps and humid. the condition and nutrition of your sire and dam, and mostly how well you take care of your dam while shes gravid. gutload your feeders top notch, keep them very clean and healthy, take care of your dam to no end, and your eggs will hatch at diff temps and moisture level ( not a great range, but you'll still have more of a range....room for some error )

 

[klangford]

the fact that you had to preface with " i wont ever breed " AKA i wont be your competition... leads me to believe you already have an answer

Hmmmm, well I hate to burst your conspiracy theory bubble but I'm genuinely a nice guy asking a simple question and knew I didn't have all the facts; thus I posed it for debate and input. Thanks for participating.

most of the time to find out what ideal moisture levels are you'll have to learn the hard way. that makes the information semi precious.

Ah - so at the cost of several of clutches of eggs you'd rather sit on the information as opposed to share in a forum dedicated to the care and well being of such animals - not exactly the response I envisioned but thanks for reminding me to expect the unexpected.

the fact that you had to preface with " i wont ever breed " AKA i wont be your competition... ..but really, would you go to better crockers forum and ask her what her recipe for her money making cookies are?.

So if I read this right; you presume I'm secretly trying to find the right 'recipe' to grow/hatch chams to compete with breeders. Interesting theory but I can assure you I'm quite successful in business on my own. From what I've read, raising chams isn't a money maker venture for most - its a hobby at best that pays off in personal dividends, not financial dividends.

As for Betty Crocker the answer is no - I don't have to. It seems she already shares that recipe putting out a Recipe Book almost every year.

there are moisture level and ranges to all things concerned with incubating eggs...there is no golden set of numbers, different specs work for diff eggs....there is a lot more to hatching than just temps and humid. the condition and nutrition of your sire and dam, and mostly how well you take care of your dam while shes gravid. gutload your feeders top notch, keep them very clean and healthy, take care of your dam to no end, and your eggs will hatch at diff temps and moisture level ( not a great range, but you'll still have more of a range....room for some error )

Thank you for that insight - helps me see that the moisture meter idea is just that; an idea at best that doesn't consider many other parameters.

Good luck in all that you do my friend.

 

[Scaley]

I always find threads like this interesting. We say we want to create husbandry for the sake of the the animal but we really create it for the sake of business success. I've asked many such questions on various different forums not neccesarily all cham related. It seems if the question gets deeper than how does my cage look it doesn't get answered. Just a thread with two kinds of replies ( i'd love too know that or wellll it just depends on your situation.) just my thoughts. I think a moisture meter is a fantastic idea.

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

I'm not a breeder either

i guess i should start by re stating something from my first post.

" personally i share anything i know, and often times expect people to give me such information when i ask, when i shouldn't expect. "

one of my comments that was clearly my PERSONAL opinion and not just MY OPINION ON WHY OTHERS are not coming forward with such information i can totally disregard your rude and immature comment about my "conspiracy theory bubble " cause its not my bubble my friend

since it seems you got defensive ill simplify:

" the fact that you had to preface with " i wont ever breed " AKA i wont be your competition... leads me to believe you already have an answer"

i was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you already knew WHY the information isnt readily available, ( based on your need to let other breeders know that you are not a breeder and will not be competition, you title says it all " not a breeder " ) and simply disagreed with why its not available .

and was just trying to give my input as to the validity of your idea of why its not available.

you said
" Ah - so at the cost of several of clutches of eggs you'd rather sit on the information as opposed to share in a forum dedicated to the care and well being of such animals - not exactly the response I envisioned but thanks for reminding me to expect the unexpected.
"

AGAIN when you DONT ignore my statement (" personally i share anything i know." )

but you did ignore it didnt you..........either way IMHO its pretty clear I personally WOULDNT rather sit on the information .

you also said " rather sit on the information as opposed to share in a forum dedicated to the care and well being of such animals"

think about that a little bit. just because a breeder wont tell you what humid range or temp or anything at all concerning eggs, doesnt mean that they wont help you diagnose or offer advice on the adults you have, and how to aid your gravid female in avoiding becoming eggbound.

what does breeding and eggs have to do with the care and well being of the chameleons you have?

you said

"
So if I read this right; you presume I'm secretly trying to find the right 'recipe' to grow/hatch chams to compete with breeders. Interesting theory but I can assure you I'm quite successful in business on my own.
"

good for you............... but i presume nothing. again i share any info i can. im merely adding my insight as to one of the possible reasons why its not available.... but even if i was breeder, you wouldn't stand a chance of being competition for years ( for too many reasons to list )

you said "

From what I've read, raising chams isn't a money maker venture for most - its a hobby at best that pays off in personal dividends, not financial dividends.

As for Betty Crocker the answer is no - I don't have to. It seems she already shares that recipe putting out a Recipe Book almost every year."

precisely, chams isnt a money maker, so if you are that suc. in business, you can understand why breeders would want to protect the profit........cant you?


Dont kid yourself, breeding crosses the line into the business side. you'll need to make friends to get free information as in any business.

 

[klangford]

This spirit of this thread is no longer of any real value to the forum and I suggest we let it die on the vine. While I am all for logical and thought provoking debate nothing good comes from arguing on the internet. Hopefully a responsible moderator will do me a favor and close this thread so it can find its way to the bottom of the thread list.

All the best,

Klangford

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

Agreed, this seems as if its between me and you, had you sent a PM, or refrained from making personal remarks this could have been kept away from the public eye. I meant no disrespect, i meant no sarcasm. It seems my tone was not understood as i meant it to be.

there is useful information in this thread though. if anything

" just because a breeder wont tell you what humid range or temp or anything at all concerning eggs, doesnt mean that they wont help you diagnose or offer advice on the adults you have, and how to aid your gravid female in avoiding becoming eggbound.

what does breeding and eggs have to do with the care and well being of the chameleons you have? "

and " Dont kid yourself, breeding crosses the line into the business side. you'll need to make friends to get free information as in any business"


That is good for a member that disagrees with a breeder or anyone that does not willingly share any information that no longer directly pertains to the health of current stock.

cheers

 

[Sneak]

So what are the parameters for the moisture level, temp, etc? I will not be breeding either...... seriously

 

[BocaJan]

There has been much discussion about the container for incubating eggs and the moisture level. Temps should be in the constant 72-75 range.