Naturalistic hydration - how does it work?

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

I will check this out thank you! Off subject But I’d like to point out that I was planing on getting a Jackson’s chameleon in the beginning of this adventure when I started researching these amazing creatures 5 months ago. That’s why I have so many locations for Jackson’s weather in my phone lol. But after much research around the forum I decided on a @Matt Vanilla Gorilla ambilobe panther chameleon about a month ago. He will be arriving very soon . Shout out to him he is one of the best on this forum for panther babies and is extremely knowledgeable!

Thank you so much for your kind words and words of confidence!

 

[Lunatuck]

I do wonder what % of their water needs come from food as opposed to water.

 

[JacksJill]

It would be interesting and nearly impossible to measure, an in's and out's, of their moisture consumption and elimination.

 

[CamoChameleonsHuman]

I've wondered about this because higher humidity would seem like it'd lead to less dehydration, but I've heard the opposite. For example, mma fighters will cut weight by sitting in high heat humidity like a sauna or a bath.

Also according to petr, it seems they do hydrate through humidity, unlike humans. He has only used foggers with no water for months? I think he said... and be says they are still very hydrated.

The key there is the heat. They are trying to sweat out the water which is not safe and I hate that fighters have to do this. I trained MMA for awhile but never fought. I knew guys who would jog with a black trash bag over themselves at high noon as well. Not so much the humidity they're after in the sauna but just the heat to get them to sweat.

 

[Lunatuck]

The key there is the heat. They are trying to sweat out the water which is not safe and I hate that fighters have to do this. I trained MMA for awhile but never fought. I knew guys who would jog with a black trash bag over themselves at high noon as well. Not so much the humidity they're after in the sauna but just the heat to get them to sweat.

My best friend was a wrestler. He would use my shower for his weight loss before weigh ins. I was always afraid he’s pass out in there.

 

[jamest0o0]

The key there is the heat. They are trying to sweat out the water which is not safe and I hate that fighters have to do this. I trained MMA for awhile but never fought. I knew guys who would jog with a black trash bag over themselves at high noon as well. Not so much the humidity they're after in the sauna but just the heat to get them to sweat.

That's sick, same here man. My 2 older brothers were boxers too. I heard specifically from multiple places that humidity leads to dehydration, but makes sense for it to be paired with heat. The point is that youd dehydrate faster in humid heat than dry heat(is my understanding). Makes sense too if you feel the difference.

 

[JacksJill]

You can over heat more easily in high humidity because we rely on evaporative cooling, sweating and high humidity hinders evaporation.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

There is also quite a large amount of water that is made in the body of all living creatures merely by them living. This happens as our bodies process and use the food we ingest for energy. That is how bugs like bean beetles can live on dry foods (dry beans) and never drink water and still have all the water they need in their bodies for normal healthy metabolic function. I am sure chameleons produce quite a bit or water like this!

 

[Brodybreaux25]

@DeremensisBlue @PetNcs

Any input? Specifically to post #1 and #33.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

The only way to do this would be raising the ambient humidity, the foggers usually only raise humidity in a small area around them. Does humidity where veileds live reach 100% regularly at night? Not arguing, genuinely curious. Petr necas research was in the mountains of Kenya, wasn't it? Much different than panther or veiled habitats.

Petr Necas actually started in the wadis of Yemen researching the veiled chameleon. And the rolling in of the fogs banks there is what triggered the strong drive to dive into how chameleons hydrated during the night. He found the same dynamic in the mountains of Kenya. And this was in parallel with the efforts of Mario Jungmann to figure this out across other countries in Africas and Carl Cattau who was passing it around to the breeders he knew. So this ended up being a multi pronged "discovery" that was happening in multiple areas around the world with many people coming to the same conclusion. And what is best is they implemented it and we are benefiting from years of experience dialing it in!

What I’ve done is add the weather report on my phone app of the towns where my chameleon species is abundant in

Great idea and this gives general weather patterns that will give insight into their overall world. The one that we need to be very careful with is the Veiled Chameleon because the weather towers are not in the wadis where the vields live. Wadis are valleys which end up becoming a lush microclimate that will produce environments not recorded by the weather towers. This oversight coupled with various YouTube videos has created some of the most prevalent misinformation on veiled chameleons that they live in a harsh climate. They actually thrive in a lush climate and when the dry season comes you can then see them as they are dying from the incoming harsh climate. They are hardy things and can survive into the harsh environments, but they are actually at the end of their lives when you see them sitting on a leafless tree. They are easy to photograph and video in this state so that is how we see them on the internet, but this is not the conditions we should strive to keep them in.

I guess I’m really asking is how do the lungs collect water from the air and then shift it out of the lungs and into the rest of the body? After all, lungs are designed to capture oxygen molecules, not water molecules.

I am still working out understanding the actual mechanism. I have had a doctor and a scientist explain it to me, but until I understand it enough to be able to articulate it back I know I still have work to do. Here is where I am in my effort to wrestle this dynamic down: I am understanding that it is the same effect as when we use nebulizers to get medicine in through the lungs. the oxygen is taken from the lungs by the blood and so the blood takes the nebulizer medicine or the hydration. Please understand that I am not sharing this as a fact. I am sharing this as a work in progress because there are pieces here I am not sure of and could be presenting incorrectly and oversimplified. Believe me, a WHOLE LOT of work goes into understanding something well enough to present it in simple terms on the podcast! So, I share here only so you can know what stage I am at understanding this mechanism. (And when I understand it enough then I will bring on a doctor/scientist and we will explain it to the community!)
Beyond the mechanism we then need to figure out what the true effectiveness is. How much is the humid night just preventing moisture loss and how much is it actually providing hydration? Preventing moisture loss is not that big of a jump for me. The study with the anolis that I cited in that first Naturalistic Hydration episode made it pretty clear moisture is lost during breathing and it isn't a big jump to say that the less humid the air, the more moisture will be drawn out. So high humidity would slow the moisture loss. I can accept that without rumaging through all the scientific papers.
Now, how much positive hydration is achieved in this manner? That is speculative and I am aware of no study that helps us here. The pieces we have are that chameleons live through dry seasons with only nighttime humidity, morning dew, and moisture from feeders. I also know that chameleons can take a lot less water and hydration than we give them, but saying that is dangerous considering what happens when people get out of the habit of daily hydration for chameleons. So forget I said that! But, it is important for those of us trying to figure out their hydration needs to understand that it is possible that some chameleons that go through a dry season and are able to survive off of just moisture they get from their food. Maybe they can do this only for the number of months that their dry season usually is and the high nighttime humidity extends the time they can last? So there are definitely many fascinating scenarios to consider here.

Bill

 

[Rlc1994]

Petr Necas actually started in the wadis of Yemen researching the veiled chameleon. And the rolling in of the fogs banks there is what triggered the strong drive to dive into how chameleons hydrated during the night. He found the same dynamic in the mountains of Kenya. And this was in parallel with the efforts of Mario Jungmann to figure this out across other countries in Africas and Carl Cattau who was passing it around to the breeders he knew. So this ended up being a multi pronged "discovery" that was happening in multiple areas around the world with many people coming to the same conclusion. And what is best is they implemented it and we are benefiting from years of experience dialing it in!



Great idea and this gives general weather patterns that will give insight into their overall world. The one that we need to be very careful with is the Veiled Chameleon because the weather towers are not in the wadis where the vields live. Wadis are valleys which end up becoming a lush microclimate that will produce environments not recorded by the weather towers. This oversight coupled with various YouTube videos has created some of the most prevalent misinformation on veiled chameleons that they live in a harsh climate. They actually thrive in a lush climate and when the dry season comes you can then see them as they are dying from the incoming harsh climate. They are hardy things and can survive into the harsh environments, but they are actually at the end of their lives when you see them sitting on a leafless tree. They are easy to photograph and video in this state so that is how we see them on the internet, but this is not the conditions we should strive to keep them in.


I am still working out understanding the actual mechanism. I have had a doctor and a scientist explain it to me, but until I understand it enough to be able to articulate it back I know I still have work to do. Here is where I am in my effort to wrestle this dynamic down: I am understanding that it is the same effect as when we use nebulizers to get medicine in through the lungs. the oxygen is taken from the lungs by the blood and so the blood takes the nebulizer medicine or the hydration. Please understand that I am not sharing this as a fact. I am sharing this as a work in progress because there are pieces here I am not sure of and could be presenting incorrectly and oversimplified. Believe me, a WHOLE LOT of work goes into understanding something well enough to present it in simple terms on the podcast! So, I share here only so you can know what stage I am at understanding this mechanism. (And when I understand it enough then I will bring on a doctor/scientist and we will explain it to the community!)
Beyond the mechanism we then need to figure out what the true effectiveness is. How much is the humid night just preventing moisture loss and how much is it actually providing hydration? Preventing moisture loss is not that big of a jump for me. The study with the anolis that I cited in that first Naturalistic Hydration episode made it pretty clear moisture is lost during breathing and it isn't a big jump to say that the less humid the air, the more moisture will be drawn out. So high humidity would slow the moisture loss. I can accept that without rumaging through all the scientific papers.
Now, how much positive hydration is achieved in this manner? That is speculative and I am aware of no study that helps us here. The pieces we have are that chameleons live through dry seasons with only nighttime humidity, morning dew, and moisture from feeders. I also know that chameleons can take a lot less water and hydration than we give them, but saying that is dangerous considering what happens when people get out of the habit of daily hydration for chameleons. So forget I said that! But, it is important for those of us trying to figure out their hydration needs to understand that it is possible that some chameleons that go through a dry season and are able to survive off of just moisture they get from their food. Maybe they can do this only for the number of months that their dry season usually is and the high nighttime humidity extends the time they can last? So there are definitely many fascinating scenarios to consider here.

Bill

Nice input bill! I agree I think if we just simplify it down into thinking high humidity in the air the lungs absorb more of that moisture so water loss will be less minimal. Little humidity in the air the lungs won’t be taking in as much moisture so more will be lost. Instead of really thinking down into the science part of it all this is the easiest way to really help people understand. The lungs are pretty amazing organs at absorbing even the tiniest molecules in the air and transporting them through our body and blood. Take that down into a chameleons lung anatomy and we have something that has a super thin structure and looks highly absorbable and built to take and hold onto the smallest of air molecules in the air such as water vapor. This is why I think many reptiles lungs come down with infections so often. Their lungs are so good at absorbing at what’s in the air whether that be bad or Good molecules they can come down with infection in the lungs a lot more easier since the structure of the lung is so fragile and in tune to take in whatever is in the air. This is just all in theory though I really don’t know the true science behind it. I just wanted to share my thoughts.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Petr Necas actually started in the wadis of Yemen researching the veiled chameleon. And the rolling in of the fogs banks there is what triggered the strong drive to dive into how chameleons hydrated during the night. He found the same dynamic in the mountains of Kenya. And this was in parallel with the efforts of Mario Jungmann to figure this out across other countries in Africas and Carl Cattau who was passing it around to the breeders he knew. So this ended up being a multi pronged "discovery" that was happening in multiple areas around the world with many people coming to the same conclusion. And what is best is they implemented it and we are benefiting from years of experience dialing it in!



Great idea and this gives general weather patterns that will give insight into their overall world. The one that we need to be very careful with is the Veiled Chameleon because the weather towers are not in the wadis where the vields live. Wadis are valleys which end up becoming a lush microclimate that will produce environments not recorded by the weather towers. This oversight coupled with various YouTube videos has created some of the most prevalent misinformation on veiled chameleons that they live in a harsh climate. They actually thrive in a lush climate and when the dry season comes you can then see them as they are dying from the incoming harsh climate. They are hardy things and can survive into the harsh environments, but they are actually at the end of their lives when you see them sitting on a leafless tree. They are easy to photograph and video in this state so that is how we see them on the internet, but this is not the conditions we should strive to keep them in.


I am still working out understanding the actual mechanism. I have had a doctor and a scientist explain it to me, but until I understand it enough to be able to articulate it back I know I still have work to do. Here is where I am in my effort to wrestle this dynamic down: I am understanding that it is the same effect as when we use nebulizers to get medicine in through the lungs. the oxygen is taken from the lungs by the blood and so the blood takes the nebulizer medicine or the hydration. Please understand that I am not sharing this as a fact. I am sharing this as a work in progress because there are pieces here I am not sure of and could be presenting incorrectly and oversimplified. Believe me, a WHOLE LOT of work goes into understanding something well enough to present it in simple terms on the podcast! So, I share here only so you can know what stage I am at understanding this mechanism. (And when I understand it enough then I will bring on a doctor/scientist and we will explain it to the community!)
Beyond the mechanism we then need to figure out what the true effectiveness is. How much is the humid night just preventing moisture loss and how much is it actually providing hydration? Preventing moisture loss is not that big of a jump for me. The study with the anolis that I cited in that first Naturalistic Hydration episode made it pretty clear moisture is lost during breathing and it isn't a big jump to say that the less humid the air, the more moisture will be drawn out. So high humidity would slow the moisture loss. I can accept that without rumaging through all the scientific papers.
Now, how much positive hydration is achieved in this manner? That is speculative and I am aware of no study that helps us here. The pieces we have are that chameleons live through dry seasons with only nighttime humidity, morning dew, and moisture from feeders. I also know that chameleons can take a lot less water and hydration than we give them, but saying that is dangerous considering what happens when people get out of the habit of daily hydration for chameleons. So forget I said that! But, it is important for those of us trying to figure out their hydration needs to understand that it is possible that some chameleons that go through a dry season and are able to survive off of just moisture they get from their food. Maybe they can do this only for the number of months that their dry season usually is and the high nighttime humidity extends the time they can last? So there are definitely many fascinating scenarios to consider here.

Bill

Thank you, I understand your stating your opinion, not verified facts. But still the best explanation I’ve received by far!

 

[KobaOregonherper]

Thank you, I understand your stating your opinion, not verified facts. But still the best explanation I’ve received by far!

Why I love this forum. Getting input and advice from the chameleon trail blazers is amazing! Were all learning as we go, but its nice to not have to do it alone!

 

[Lunatuck]

Can we rule out a mechanism like this?

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ip-water-from-sand-through-its-feet-and-back/

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Can we rule out a mechanism like this?

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ip-water-from-sand-through-its-feet-and-back/

Yes

 

[cyberlocc]

The only way to do this would be raising the ambient humidity, the foggers usually only raise humidity in a small area around them. Does humidity where veileds live reach 100% regularly at night? Not arguing, genuinely curious. Petr necas research was in the mountains of Kenya, wasn't it? Much different than panther or veiled habitats.

I'm not sure about Veilieds, however Panthers 100% experience this.

The Humidity in panther habitats is 100% at night, during the wet season, and also very high during the day as well. Even Ambilobe is borderline rainforest, (185cms YRF, 200cms to be a "Rainforest")

 

[cyberlocc]

You can over heat more easily in high humidity because we rely on evaporative cooling, sweating and high humidity hinders evaporation.

With a Cham they don't sweat, so would they dehydrate faster in humid or Dry heat?

Looking at Ambilobe weather again, we can see the hottest time of the year is the dry season. However it's pretty warm year round. Humidity hits dry heat in the middle of the dry season, for a month of 10% out of the year, it's 30 before and back to 30 quickly after. Until the wet season where it's 80-100. So Pheonix in the summer and Florida in the winter lol.

 

[JacksJill]

With a Cham they don't sweat, so would they dehydrate faster in humid or Dry heat?

Looking at Ambilobe weather again, we can see the hottest time of the year is the dry season. However it's pretty warm year round. Humidity hits dry heat in the middle of the dry season, for a month of 10% out of the year, it's 30 before and back to 30 quickly after. Until the wet season where it's 80-100. So Pheonix in the summer and Florida in the winter lol.

Sorry my comment was off topic and only related to people sweating and dehydrating faster in humid conditions. It in no way relates to chameleons and animals that don't sweat or pant to cool themselves.

 

[cyberlocc]

Sorry my comment was off topic and only related to people sweating and dehydrating faster in humid conditions. It in no way relates to chameleons and animals that don't sweat or pant to cool themselves.

Ya, I know that. However it did bring up that interesting question.

How does humidity affect them from a dehydration standpoint.

Chameleons do gape to cool themselves, surely that is akin to panting? Why does hydration with heat cause an RI when a dry heat causes dehydration, in theory.

I would also be curious, how this applies to WCs. Is the RI from Heat+Humidity apply to them? Or is it our captive care that has made them not able to deal with heat and humidity.

 

[AnamCara]

Hmm, fair point! I think that largely applies to high humidity alongside hot temperatures, though, which would be part of why we fog at night.

Perhaps we ought to pretend that my marathon analogy is taking place during a cool night.

Fighters prefer straight heat to a steam room -- water on hot rocks vs steam out a tube -- and they cut water intake too. They are sweating out without replenishing to cut weight -- and I've fully seen them pass out too.

So -- here is the dumbest questions of all time -- is there no way for them to absorb the moisture other than their lungs? I have always been under the impression that moisture + lungs = bad news bears. I guess I never thought this all the way through