Nasal Salt Glands - the cause of the white crusts on the nose

[JackP308]

whats the difference between drips and misting system? Or do you use different water in both. I use City Tap water that is hard .It leaves white after a while on plants and I heavily dust when i do dust crickets.

I have notice the salts only in my veiled and its normally summertime and he's basking in 90 plus temps. I might recall carpets with it dried up as well outside. I use the hose on them and sprinkler. Never seen it in any of my panthers.Or any other chameleons mainly veiled in high temps in the summer.

Good little article on Water and salt glands chameleon News past issue Nov 2002 Titled Water, written by Sue.

 

[fluxlizard]

mist washes it off the lizard because it's like a lizard shower.

A drip is more localized and if combined with a leaf that the water trickles down, is much much less likely to rinse the residue off.

 

[Elizadolots]

Snalt...no matter what its composition....is the body getting rid of excesses of whatever mineral it is...and a natural event. Its said to not be harmful to the chameleon...so it really doesn't matter what mineral it is....its natural and normal and necessary for it to happen to keep a balance in the chameleon's system.

Decreasing calcium, if the person decreases it too far, is harmful....so if snalt is not harmful, I would rather see a chameleon with snalt on its nose than see a chameleon with MBD because of decreased calcium....IF IT EVEN IS CALCIUM THAT IS PLAYING A PART IN THE SNALT.

I'm sorry to keep going back to Dr. Hazard's research, but I've read her report so it's what I'm most familiar with. Also, I think she's also the only person to work with the same species of animals raised in 2 different salt environments. What she found is that the gland adapted to the original salt. Later, when overloaded on another salt, it continued to express the salt it was adapted for in a far greater percentage.

If the animal was being overloaded with say, potassium but was only able to excrete substantial amounts of sodium, it seems to me that would be a problem.

Snalt...no matter what its composition....is the body getting rid of excesses of whatever mineral it is...

By the way, that is essentially what I have contended. The gland is getting an excess of calcium carbonate (ghost crickets) and so sloughing off the extra, but for some reason when I say it, I'm evil.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

.By the way, that is essentially what I have contended. The gland is getting an excess of calcium carbonate (ghost crickets) and so sloughing off the extra, but for some reason when I say it, I'm evil.

You are not evil, just have no foundation to stand on to make that claim. What I said is there is no evidence that any other salt is found as the predominant salt besides sodium or potassium despite any environmental or genetic influence, even when other salts were injected in high concentrations. Those salts did not even come up as a small component of the secretions, much less become suddenly dominant. So it doesn't make sense that one salt would do something that no others can do. Do not quote Hazard to me again. Find that theory from other authors or do not use it at all. One paper against hundreds of others is a statistical outlier that gets excluded.

And I still maintain that without solid evidence (which hasn't been studied specifically as you keep reminding me) it is irresponsible to make potentially dangerous recommendations when in fact the issue at hand is harmless to begin with. It makes no sense to me to possibly endanger an animal's health over a harmless crust. Educate people on dusting properly instead of a blanket statement of 'just decrease calcium'. To a newbie that could mean decrease to once a month, which could be devastating to a youngster in peak growing phase.

Will you pay for the anaylsis if I can get some crusts?

 

[Elizadolots]

But, when kinyonga says that whatever mineral is in excess is excreted to keep balance, that's fine. I say it and I have no leg to stand on.

You do realize that you are the one who has claimed a "fact" about the calcium? You do realize you are the one calling a theory "fact" and giving advice based on that, right?

I always tell people to continue to supplement daily but reduce the quantity of calcium. I sometimes suggest that they dust only half the crickets.

I fail to see how that is irresponsible.

No, I'm not paying for any analysis as I'm fine with there being multiple theories. I'm just not fine with longstanding members who relate their personal experience being told they are "spreading myths" and "don't have a leg to stand on".

You have a theory. Other people offer their experience which contradicts your theory. That's evidence that should be used to improve your theory.

That's the way it should work.

You should not respond to offers of evidence with denial and condescension.

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."when kinyonga says that whatever mineral is in excess is excreted to keep balance"...I said "no matter what its composition"...I didn't say it contained calcium.

 

[DekuScrub]

id pay for them to get tested if i had money.

it dosn't sound like it would be all that difficult to conduct a study. especially with a large community involved.

like i said before im purely curious.

ive seen valid points by all parties in this debate. there are just too many variables, in my mind, to consider any of the works cited, or personal hypothesis as cannon.

so lets pool some money and find some people with those delicious "snalts"

then again just testing the composition is going to leave us with more questions than we started with...

 

[Elizadolots]

So, is there some idea that in science circles "other" "whatever mineral" and other all inclusive terms secretly mean "but not calcium"?

Deku, if a lot of people wanted to participate, I'd be willing to chip in some, but I was just invited to pay for the entire thing myself.

 

[kinyonga]

I was just trying to clarify that I did not specify any mineral.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Deku, if a lot of people wanted to participate, I'd be willing to chip in some, but I was just invited to pay for the entire thing myself.

You keep saying I'm wrong because this very specific study hasn't been done. I'm offering to do it. Thought you'd want to put your money where your mouth is.

You have a theory. Other people offer their experience which contradicts your theory. That's evidence that should be used to improve your theory.

Please provide this evidence that supports your theory. I would like to see where crusts occurred, calcium was decreased (with no other variable changed), and the crusts went away. Quotations please.

 

[Elizadolots]

They're all over the board, Ferret. That is my point. Poster after poster has said that they got the crusts to go away by decreasing calcium supplements.

When people say that, you condemn them. Maybe just go through your posts and look for times you told people to stop spreading myths and lies...that would be a good place to start.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

They're all over the board, Ferret. That is my point. Poster after poster has said that they got the crusts to go away by decreasing calcium supplements.

Quotations please.

There should be 3 things to every case to make it evidence:
1. That crusts occurred
2. What they changed about their husbandry
3. Confirmation that the crusts went away

 

[Elizadolots]

Poster reports having reduced calcium supplementation and seen improvement:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/white-crust-nose-71674/#post669513

Senior poster reports having reduced calcium supplementation and seen improvement:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/white-stuff-my-chameleons-nostril-58488/index2.html#post548031

Another poster:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/white-stuff-my-chameleons-nostril-58488/index2.html#post548032

Highly respected poster stating that the crust is often caused by over supplementation:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/white-crust-around-nose-27823/#post254497

And, finally, Brad Ramsey's blog entry:http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/2007/12/supplements.html

*Over-supplementation is quite common among keepers who are trying to make sure their animal gets everything it needs. Very often people ask about the crusty white discharge that has started to appear in their veiled chameleon's nostrils ...this is how the animal eliminates excess minerals and salts and is a sign of over-supplementation.
Try to be aware of how small this animal is....how big is the vitamin tablet you take compared to the size of your body...how big would it be if you were the size of your chameleon?
Crickets do not need to be drowned in supplement, nor do all of them need to be dusted. Dust a few of them very lightly with that days supplement and you're done!

Please remember that there is only one thing that is recommended for daily supplementation: calcium carbonate.

**edited to add**

really..it was a simple matter of searching and then reading the posts... I knew you'd ask, so I did your basic research for you...

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

If only you could calm down enough to stop taking everything so personally and debate this reasonably instead of just trying to attack me then we might be able to get somewhere.

I'm glad you were able to give quotes. Although it doesn't take into account anything else they changed in their environment, like water or food that are high in salt. A very poorly designed study, but that can't be helped due to the nature of it. My own quote from experienece says the opposite - I had crusts, didn't change the calcium, only the water source and they went away in days. Over-supplementation is a very ambiguous term and does not specifically mean calcium (that's why they often say 'minerals and salts').

All scientific evidence I can find on the topic contradicts the theory that calcium is a primary component. And based on the physiology of it and the gland it wouldn't make any sense for it to be. That's what I'm saying. The only way to definitively settle this is to get some crusts and analyze them. I still maintain there is no reason to recommend that calcium supplementation be decreased, which was the point of this thread to begin with.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Okay I can't let this one go...
Your second to last quote expanded:

he recieves between 7 to 10 crickets a day all dusted..yeh they look like ghost :S

wat are the reprecutions of over supplementing if any?? can it block the nose of a baby cham and force him to breath through his mouth????

i shall reduced the amount of calcium dust i am using..

thanks

That was July 2009.

Take a look at her thread in December 2009:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/i-dontknow-wats-wrong-34125

Her chameleon got MBD and it looks like the likely culprit was 'decreasing the calcium'. This is exactly what I'm afraid of.

 

[Elizadolots]

Oh, please..I'm not the one who's resorted to juvenile tactics to press the point. I'm as calm as it gets.

My point is simply that you are using evidence from other species in completely different environments to provide PROOF of something.

That's not good science. Yes, I know..I'm no one, you're all educated...but it doesn't change THE FACT that good science doesn't do crap like that.

The evidence provided by board members needs to be respected.

I'm sorry if you don't feel that way.

Note that I did not include every instance of a long standing board member saying it was over supplementation. I only included people who said they'd done the experiment or members who are held in high regard due to their status as experienced owners. (I did not, for instance, include any time I said it...)

You are stuck on the idea that the gland is restricted to certain ions. Dr. Hazard's research says that is not true. Hate her for disagreeing with you all you want, the fact is, she seems to be the only person who has addressed the issue of whether the gland is adaptable.

She says the gland is adaptable to the environmental salts, her research supports that.

You do not appear to have any support for the idea the gland is not adaptable.

If the animal is wild caught, by Dr. Hazard's (and my) theory, the gland is adapted to express primarily the salt's it grew up with...when put into a domestic situation with hard water and food heavily dusted with calcium carbonate, the gland would not be able to express the appropriate salts to create a healthy balance.

I think that the "how to ask for help" form should be changed to include "What is your water source?" and "Is the animal wild caught or captive bred?".

It seems to me that those are important questions when it comes to supplementation issues (noting: what makes hard water hard is usually calcium carbonate).

 

[Elizadolots]

Replying to the post made while I was composing.

I was pointing you to Sumner's comment...that the original poster in the thread had problems is not germane.

 

[kinyonga]

Eliza you cited this...from July 2009...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/white-crust-around-nose-27823/#post254497
ashrules says "i shall reduced the amount of calcium dust i am using" then in Dec. 2009 in this thread it appears that the chameleon has developed MBD...but the UVB light could be part of the reason....
https://www.chameleonforums.com/i-dontknow-wats-wrong-34125/

In the site you listed from Brad, I don't see where Brad has said that its calcium oversupplementation that caused the crusty deposit...or am I missing something?

summoner12 doesn't say its specifically calcium either...or am I missing something here too?

In this thread, Jade's chameleon had MBD and yet the reduced calcium thing was still done?? I wonder how the chameleon did in the end?
https://www.chameleonforums.com/white-crust-nose-71674/#post669513

 

[Elizadolots]

Again, what is the ONLY daily supplement this board recommends? When someone is recommending that vitamins and D3 be given 2x a month, how can it be assumed those are the culprits.

Really...there is grasping for straws and there is grasping for things you think might be straws but turn out to be beams of light from the shutters....

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

The only proof I provided was there is no evidence to support anything other than sodium or potassium. Hazard's statement (so help me if you quote your statistical outlier again - find that theory by someone else or stop using it) was pure speculation as it's never been tested or proven in that form whatsoever. All her actual research ever showed was potassium and sodium, like all the rest.

You are exhausting me because you are unreasonable and illogical. Goodnight.