Nasal Salt Glands - the cause of the white crusts on the nose

[ferretinmyshoes]

Also how come we don't see crusts more often? Calcium supplementation is pretty much universal these days but we sure don't see them on every lizard, or even all that commonly if high levels of calcium supposedly make this happen?

 

[Carlton]

Also how come we don't see crusts more often? Calcium supplementation is pretty much universal these days but we sure don't see them on every lizard, or even all that commonly if high levels of calcium supposedly make this happen?

I think you'd have to rule out every individual cham's calcium state and it's hydration state to make any conclusions about why it is expressing minerals of any type. Too many variables without knowing these items.

This debate is interesting, but fairly moot without knowing:
a) if chams have salt glands in the first place.
b) if their metabolic handling of mineral salts is even what we are theorizing it is.
c) what the chemical makeup of the nasal deposits really is.

And, last but maybe not least,

d) Does it really matter what the deposit is?

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

I think you'd have to rule out every individual cham's calcium state and it's hydration state to make any conclusions about why it is expressing minerals of any type. Too many variables without knowing these items.

This debate is interesting, but fairly moot without knowing:
a) if chams have salt glands in the first place.
b) if their metabolic handling of mineral salts is even what we are theorizing it is.
c) what the chemical makeup of the nasal deposits really is.

And, last but maybe not least,

d) Does it really matter what the deposit is?

All very valid points! The only reason I really care is because the assumption that they are calcium crusts is causing people to recommend decreasing calcium supplementation. I think this is a dangerous recommendation due to the incredibly high incidence of calcium deficiency we see. We watch animals die of MBD on a weekly basis, and that's just here. That's not even counting all the people with chams who aren't on the forums. I don't think it matters at all what the crusts are because even if they were somehow calcium, there are virtually no adverse consequences to excess calcium. So I don't know why the recommendation to decrease calcium supplementation is accepted to begin with. I just want people to stop recommending to decrease calcium because of crusts when the crusts are completely harmless in themselves as well. That is all I wanted to gain with this.

 

[kinyonga]

Since this whole debate seems to be over the advice to decrease the calcium in order to get rid of the "snalt" but its said that the "snalt" is a normal function and won't cause the chameleon any harm, why is it necessary or advised to cut the calcium down to get rid of the snalt??? IMHO cutting down on the calcium might be enough to push the chameleon towards MBD which unlike the snalt is harmful...especially with people who don't have enough knowledge about chameleons' requirements.

I also think that testing the snalt would prove once and for all what the white crust produced by some chameleons around the nostril is.

 

[DekuScrub]

@ferret

hence why i ask them if their chameleons feeders look like powdered doughnuts before i suggest that that may be the cause.

i understand the concern with mbd, its very prevalent amongst the under educated.

but you seem to think and absurd amount of supplementation is necessary to keep a healthy cham, but thats presumptive of me. how much supplementation do you actually advocate?

i personally supplement about once a week now on adults, i used to do it daily.

ive never had an issue with mbd.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

but you seem to think and absurd amount of supplementation is necessary to keep a healthy cham, but thats presumptive of me. how much supplementation do you actually advocate?

That is very presumptive of you actually. At what point did I say an absurd amount of supplementation is necessary? I advocate dusting with calcium without D3 or phosphorus at nearly every feeding, and recommend that crickets that should be coated only so much that they are a lighter shade of brown, not little ghosts. As juveniles this makes calcium a nearly daily supplement, and adults only several times a week since they aren't fed every day. Juveniles have huge calcium needs and adults not as much. Since excess calcium is easily excreted through the kidneys if that amount is in excess (which I personally don't think it is) a little extra doesn't hurt. Too little can hurt.

Remember the "under educated" are most of our membership. Most people post a few times and are never seen again. Most of those people have just gotten their cham or are having problems with their first cham.

 

[DekuScrub]

I think you'd have to rule out every individual cham's calcium state and it's hydration state to make any conclusions about why it is expressing minerals of any type. Too many variables without knowing these items.

This debate is interesting, but fairly moot without knowing:
a) if chams have salt glands in the first place.
b) if their metabolic handling of mineral salts is even what we are theorizing it is.
c) what the chemical makeup of the nasal deposits really is.

And, last but maybe not least,

d) Does it really matter what the deposit is?

well it matters what the deposit is if.

a) its a potential indicator of some sort of toxicity in their diet.

b) may be a sign of dehydration.

c) or if it a symptom of anything else that may effect your lizards health

seems the general consensus is that no deposits are preferential over deposits but ive had a number of perfectly healthy chams with deposits that have come and gone. nothing that i can ever recall being perpetual.

seems we all still have a good bit to learn with this stupid nose crusty debate.

and even with what information we have laid out in this thread it all seems like inconclusive spectulation.

the arguing dosnt help us sift out all of the relevant information btw

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Since this whole debate seems to be over the advice to decrease the calcium in order to get rid of the "snalt" but its said that the "snalt" is a normal function and won't cause the chameleon any harm, why is it necessary or advised to cut the calcium down to get rid of the snalt??? IMHO cutting down on the calcium might be enough to push the chameleon towards MBD which unlike the snalt is harmful...especially with people who don't have enough knowledge about chameleons' requirements.

I agree 100%.

 

[DekuScrub]

That is very presumptive of you actually. At what point did I say an absurd amount of supplementation is necessary? I advocate dusting with calcium without D3 or phosphorus at nearly every feeding, and recommend that crickets that should be coated only so much that they are a lighter shade of brown, not little ghosts. As juveniles this makes calcium a nearly daily supplement, and adults only several times a week since they aren't fed every day. Juveniles have huge calcium needs and adults not as much. Since excess calcium is easily excreted through the kidneys if that amount is in excess (which I personally don't think it is) a little extra doesn't hurt. Too little can hurt.

apologies if i offended.

and i completely agree with the amount per feeding just less frequently. im probably at about half or a third of what your provide.

ive found more isnt always better. and i dont feel like the amount of calcium is by any means detrimental, so to clarify i wasnt bashing you. i was just saying to me it seems like a bit much is all.

also, i used to give frosted feeders to my chameleons daily and never saw ill effects by the method.

but it just seems to me providing an excessive amount of any nutrient is going to cause it to have to be processed out if its not being utilized, seems like extra stress on the liver or kidney is unnecessary.

like when i take vitamins i always have a very yellow pee shortly afterward.

 

[tkilgour]

Clarkrw3 I would be curious to know what you gutload with?

Many vegetables and fruits (especially processed or canned) contain sodium and the common gutload items including spirulina or any type of seaweed or algae do as well.

A lot of processed meat also contains high levels of sodium, including common gutload items as dog, cat, or ferret food...depending on brand.

I like the way you think. Of course Spirulina has natural salts. It is a 100%, natural, organic, micro salt water plant. Discovered in natural alkaline lakes. However, the benefits far out weight the negatives. In fact, sprirulina is considered a super food. Carrageenan on the other hand has all kinds of controversy. Spirulina is a spiral shaped algae and is a rich food source. For a long time (centuries) this algae has constituted a significant part of the diet of many communities. Since the 1970's, Spirulina has been well known and widely used as a dietary supplement in some countries.

Spirulina contains rich vegetable protein (60~ 63 %, 3~4 times higher than fish or beef ), multi Vitamins (Vitamin B 12 is 3~4 times higher than animal liver), which is particularly lacking in a vegetarian diet. It contains a wide range of minerals (including Iron, Potassium, Magnesium Sodium, Phosphorus, Calcium etc.), a high volume of Beta- carotene which protects cells (5 time more than carrots, 40 time more than spinach), high volumes of gamma-Linolein acid (which can reduce cholesterol and prevent heart disease). Further, Spirulina contains Phycocyanin which can only be found in Spirulina.

In USA, NASA have chosen to use it for astronauts food in space, and even plan to grow and harvest it in space stations in the near future.
How does Spirulina grow?

There are four major conditions for growing Spirulina.

1. Tropical weather
2. Strong sunshine
3. Pure water resource
4. Pollution free environment

It is not possible to grow Commercial Spirulina culture in a cold or temperate area. Spirulina needs consistent high temperature which helps it’s growth. Spirulina will not grow anywhere that has constant low temperature (under 25 degrees). Under 20c degrees Spirulina will stop reproducing and die in a short time.

Spirulina absorbs sunshine and then creates a reaction in it's cells. When this reaction starts, Spirulina will produce the nutrients in the cell and will convert carbon dioxide into oxygen. Strong sunshine helps Spirulina produce more nutrients.
Spirulina grows in alkaline saline water. Because Spirulina easily absorbs nutrients from water, if the water contains pollution or heavy metals, these will be highly concentrated in the Spirulina cell. If this happens, then this kind of Spirulina is no longer suitable for human consumption.
What does Spirulina contain?

With over 100 nutrients, Spirulina is often described as the most complete food source in the world. The American National Aeronautical and Space Agency includes it in their astronauts diet and plans to grow Spirulina in it’s space station. It’s easy to see why.

Japan has some good examples of some Japanese seniors who have only relied on Spirulina and water for more than 20 years showing how good is Spirulina for the human body.
How should Spirulina be stored?

Who should take Spirulina?

1. Children who don’t like or get enough vegetables and or have an imbalanced food intake.
2. Teenagers during their rapid growing period need a sufficient injection of nutrients. Spirulina is ideal for this.
3. Pregnant mums who need extra nutrients.
4. Seniors who have difficulty in having reasonable average 3 meals per day.
5. Sport lovers or athletics who need extra nutrients to keep their energy levels up.
6. Modern busy people who don't have the time to eat good meals.
7. Patients or people who need high volumes of nutrients to assist recovery (please consult your doctor)
8. Vegetarians who require extra nutrient sources

Who shouldn't take too much Spirulina?

1. People with hyperparathyroidism
2. People who have serious allergies to seafood or seaweed.
3. Patients current experiencing high fever.

How much Spirulina should be taken?

We suggest 5~10 tablets a day for adults, 3~5 tablets for children under 12 years old. If you have special requirements for extra nutrients, please consult your chemist or your health practitioner.
How should Spirulina be taken?

1. Take only with cold or warm water, (not juice, soft drinks, coffee or tea)
2. After taking Spirulina, avoid alcohol, soft drinks or coffee for 30 minutes
as these drinks can destroy some of the Spirulina nutrients and enzymes
3. Take at least an extra half litre of water a day
4. It doesn't matter if you take it once a day or twice a day,
so long as you take enough for a day.

Recommend dosage for adults is 5 ~ 10 tablets a day, children under 12 should take 3 ~5 tablets a day.

Spirulina: a food ? or a medicine?

As we all know, some of our illnesses are caused by having insufficient nutrients in our body. These illnesses are just the symptoms to show us that we may be lacking in some nutrients. If we replenish these nutrients in time, the symptoms usually disappear. If not, we can lower the function of our immune system causing further problems.

In most cases people will go to consult their doctor and may be prescribed some medicine.
Spirulina is not a medicine, but when used as a good source of supplementary food, you can avoid nutrient deficiencies causing illness

In most cases people will go to consult their doctor and may be prescribed some medicine.

The topic of Spirulina is currently quite hot for it's therapeutic applications. Medical research has already shown that Spirulina can provide benefits to our body. (Refer to our references section.)

Spirulina can help you to have reasonable levels of nutrients in your body, which will in turn give you less of the chance to get sick.
Spirulina Vegetable protein vs animal protein

Spirulina contains more than 60% vegetable protein, which is much higher than fish, pork, or beef (which contains about 15 ~20 %).Animal protein is a much bigger molecule than vegetable protein, and is much harder to for our system to digest.

Vegetable protein is water soluble, and is much smaller than animal protein. If you eat too much vegetable protein, it is simply discharged by your system as waste and not stored as fat.

Animal protein is a much bigger molecule than vegetable protein, and is much harder to for our system to digest.

Most modern people overindulge in animal protein, by eating fish, beef, pork etc. When too much animal protein is eaten, it is deposited in our body as fat. Too much fat will cause high cholesterol levels and may impact our heart and blood vessels.

 

[DekuScrub]

"3. Pregnant mums who need extra nutrients"

so im sitting here and my gf is reading over my shoulder, and then she says "i didnt know flowers could get pregnant"

roflcopter

after reading that im glad i use so much effing spirulina in my gutload.

also if you knew all that and didnt copy paste it you sir retain far too much information for your own good.

 

[tkilgour]

"3. Pregnant mums who need extra nutrients"

so im sitting here and my gf is reading over my shoulder, and then she says "i didnt know flowers could get pregnant"

roflcopter

after reading that im glad i use so much effing spirulina in my gutload.

also if you knew all that and didnt copy paste it you sir retain far too much information for your own good.

Lol, spirulina is the bomb!!! I have to research organic botanicals like a maniac. It all helps in my research and development of DF. Plus I was a Botany student in college, so yes I retain a lot or research it.

 

[thePopeJP]

Stop showing off Tom haha!

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

apologies if i offended.

No offense taken. Discussion is always welcome.

 

[tkilgour]

Lol...No showing off here. Just some spirulina facts laid out there for the thread and I certainly supplement less. I use an RO and have no chams with nasal salt build up. Yay!

 

[Elizadolots]

So what you are saying is that hundreds of lizards have been studied and the results are always the same because regardless of species, diet, environment or anything else the only cations they are exposed to in high quantity are sodium and potassium? That nothing else in the entire world could possibly have been prevalent in their environment? No chromium, iron, zinc, magnesium, copper, aluminum, nitrate or any other cation could have possibly been prominent in the environment? That is completely implausible. I wouldn't think they'd be as high as calcium supplementation, true, but I didn't ever see even one of those other cations listed as a component of secretion in any species. Your theory doesn't fit with that.

Well, it doesn't fit with your idea, but it does fit with the fact. Sodium (as you comment a lot) is the dominant salt in the world. Potassium is next up. Animals that don't live in marine environments are primarily exposed to potassium. Your references support that. That is the reason those elements are the ones excreted so readily by the salt glands.

Nope, you still aren't grasping the concept. Keep reading. What I said was that calcium can readily move into cells, and because of that would not cause hypertonic extracellular fluid, which is what triggers the gland to excrete more of what's causing hypertonicity. Too much sodium in one place makes water flood to that one place, which can make cells explode. Since it's so dangerous (the exploding part) the body needs to eliminate what is causing water to flow. Calcium doesn't have that effect. Also when there is more of it in the extracellular fluid it binds to proteins and gets eliminated via renal orhepatic secretion, or just sticks around bound to protein until blood pH changes or calcium is needed elsewhere. So googling osmosis is not enough to explain it. Physiology is not an easy subject to grasp.

Are you talking about calcium carbonate supplements? Because the way I understand the supplements work is the calcium separates from the carbonate...you've told me what happens to the calcium, what happens to the carbonate?

And how do I know this?
Because I have extensive training in chemistry, biology, physiology, anatomy, pharmacology, medicine, surgery, etc. etc. etc. I have been thoroughly trained on how to integrate facts and evidence to arrive at logical conclusions consistent with the scientific consensus by the experts of our fields. I am not just "in the field". I can speak with a certain level of authority on subjects like this because I have the background and knowledge level due to my training to actually be an authority.

Good for you. It doesn't stop you from arguing that you've proven something that is only a theory, but it's quite admirable.

What do you do for a living out of curiosity? Do you also have a professional degree in advanced sciences?

Nope, none at all. However, I was raised in a science household and I have a firm understanding of and appreciation of the scientific method. Declaring that information about animals raised in a completely different environment is proof of something in THIS environment is not good science.

You question me when you have no foundation to stand on. I provide facts after facts and study after study and you have provided nothing of the same caliber to support anything you've said.

You provide facts which are not about the issue at hand. That's because you can't. The studies have not been done. As you noted, they will probably never be done.

And because of this, your theory is a theory, not a fact.

The only person who has noted her is you. I don't see awards or long lists of publications. Don't get me wrong I have a healthy respect for her doing what she does, but she is not an authority on it compared to many others who have published way more on the topic. And no, one person does not trump everything else ever when that's not even what she studied. All her studies looked at wild animals too.

Funny, but until I ferreted out (heh!) the part where she concluded that an animal raised in an environment with a different dominant salt would adapt to excrete that salt, you quoted her extensively.

Also how come we don't see crusts more often? Calcium supplementation is pretty much universal these days but we sure don't see them on every lizard, or even all that commonly if high levels of calcium supposedly make this happen?

As noted: the theory is that the animal is raised with that salt. Therefore, no animals caught wild as adults would have made the adaption. Also, there is an assumption of over supplementation. Some get their calcium into the animals by way of great gutloading (so, no calcium carbonate), some just don't over supplement. It's only the person who's over dusting (according to the theory) that sees the crust from calcium (it can happen from over exposure to other salts) In one of our first "head to heads" on this, I said it explained the "it's just something some chams do" phenomenon we've seen on the board.

Since this whole debate seems to be over the advice to decrease the calcium in order to get rid of the "snalt" but its said that the "snalt" is a normal function and won't cause the chameleon any harm, why is it necessary or advised to cut the calcium down to get rid of the snalt??? IMHO cutting down on the calcium might be enough to push the chameleon towards MBD which unlike the snalt is harmful...especially with people who don't have enough knowledge about chameleons' requirements.

I also think that testing the snalt would prove once and for all what the white crust produced by some chameleons around the nostril is.

This is, I think something we all agree on. I always state that it's not dangerous or harmful and a number of times I've countered suggestions by others to cut out calcium for a few days.

However, many have their chameleons for "looks" and consider the deposits ugly. So, for them, I suggest continuing daily supplementation but cutting back on the daily quantity.

Note that I'm not paying for any research because my entire point is that Ferret is stating a theory as FACT and demeaning long standing board members who dare to share their experience with white crusts around the nose.

As no research has been done (and likely will never be done) on captive chameleon's salt glands, there are no FACTS.

Also, there is a possibility I've mentioned: the calcium carbonate is not being excreted, but an excess is forcing the gland to excrete potassium or sodium. As both serve important functions, that would sort of suck. To me, the statement that it's safe so don't reduce calcium supplementation says it's calcium....if not, then why is it safe?

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Also, there is a possibility I've mentioned: the calcium carbonate is not being excreted, but an excess is forcing the gland to excrete potassium or sodium. As both serve important functions, that would sort of suck"...please clarify this too...not sure what you mean.

You said.."To me, the statement that it's safe so don't reduce calcium supplementation says it's calcium....if not, then whey is it safe?"...pardon??? Can you clarify this?? Why is what safe?

 

[Elizadolots]

If the excess calcium is causing the salt gland to express sodium and potassium that might be a problem, right? Sodium and potassium are important and shouldn't be pushed out just because there's an excess of calcium.

If the gland is just expressing excess calcium, then it's no problem for the owner to ghost the crickets and the chameleon to snort out the salts...but if the gland is only expressing sodium and potassium (as Ferret argues) and, per the board experience, excess calcium supplementation can cause it to express...then the excess of calcium is causing normally acceptable levels of sodium and potassium to be excreted.

That seems dangerous to me.

 

[kinyonga]

Snalt...no matter what its composition....is the body getting rid of excesses of whatever mineral it is...and a natural event. Its said to not be harmful to the chameleon...so it really doesn't matter what mineral it is....its natural and normal and necessary for it to happen to keep a balance in the chameleon's system.

Decreasing calcium, if the person decreases it too far, is harmful....so if snalt is not harmful, I would rather see a chameleon with snalt on its nose than see a chameleon with MBD because of decreased calcium....IF IT EVEN IS CALCIUM THAT IS PLAYING A PART IN THE SNALT.

 

[fluxlizard]

Just get a misting system. It cleans the snalt before it accumulates. I suspect that is what is happening anyway when it comes to lack of snalt vs presense of snalt. I haven't thought about or noticed this stuff in years and that is probably why- I stopped keeping my veileds with drips and started using a misting system.