My q. graciliors

[jamest0o0]

Your first assumption that dehydration increases hunger is incorrect.

Even pain is reduced with dehydration which is one of the reasons palliative caregivers do not give IV fluids to dying patients.

I was just relating this which I found on google(copy and pasted below). Wondering if the same would go with chameleons. I myself think I'm hungry sometimes when I just need water. Food carries moisture too so it'd make sense. I know chameleons could be completely different, I really have no clue, as I haven't had a dehydration issue with any of my chams. But assuming Scott's chameleons aren't severely dehydrated, I don't see why it would make sense for them not to eat. So many factors come into play and I'm not an expert, I guess just trying to think of it by common sense standards.

"When you do not drink enough water, your body receives mixed signals on hunger.Dehydration causes you to believe you need to eat when you really need liquid intake."

 

[jamest0o0]

Graciliors aren't "more sensitive" @jamest0o0 than any other chameleon. In fact, I think they are hardier than most chameleons including veileds and panthers.

Captive bred animals are different than wild caught animals. A wild caught will eat when close to death and under severe stress. Not so with captive breds. Wild caughts have learned that food does not come around very often and are incredibly motivated to eat when there is food available.

The desire but inability to eat with an injured tongue is not the same as a lack of appetite. Two completely different problems.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I don't see how they aren't more sensitive. Especially if his chams are infact dehydrated. I know he has a mist system and does all he can for them. Also Panthers and veileds live through harsh conditions all the time. Panthers habitats in Madagascar are somewhat arid even and they still thrive. A montane species would probably not last in that environment for very long(though I cant be sure... just a guess). On the other hand a veiled or panther would do just fine given the extra water and humidity a montane receives.

 

[Scottsquatch]

Janet, I have the solid side dragonstrand breeders as well as a mist king that soaks the crap out of them. 15 minutes at 830. 10 minutes at 10. 5 minutes at noon, 10 minutes at 3, and 5 minutes at five. Cage is on the cool side. 68 near the bottom 70 near top. Basking lights are set up so that they can't get at anything more than 80 degrees tops and they are only on for 4 hours a day. I am wondering what the heck I am doing wrong!

 

[jajeanpierre]

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I don't see how they aren't more sensitive. Especially if his chams are infact dehydrated. I know he has a mist system and does all he can for them. Also Panthers and veileds live through harsh conditions all the time. Panthers habitats in Madagascar are somewhat arid even and they still thrive. A montane species would probably not last in that environment for very long(though I cant be sure... just a guess). On the other hand a veiled or panther would do just fine given the extra water and humidity a montane receives.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

You are suggesting that graciliors are more sensitive and difficult to deal with and they just are not. Just because they are a montane species and have certain requirements have nothing to do with how hardy they are.

The female has been problematic for him from Day 1 and after our initial conversations, I thought it was resolved. I found out here that it is not. I don't know why, but that is not typical of what I produce and I'm sending him another female.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Janet, I have the solid side dragonstrand breeders as well as a mist king that soaks the crap out of them. 15 minutes at 830. 10 minutes at 10. 5 minutes at noon, 10 minutes at 3, and 5 minutes at five. Cage is on the cool side. 68 near the bottom 70 near top. Basking lights are set up so that they can't get at anything more than 80 degrees tops and they are only on for 4 hours a day. I am wondering what the heck I am doing wrong!

You may be doing absolutely nothing wrong. The colors are good, which is indicative of good hydration. I would stop feeding crickets. Just a feeling.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I was just relating this which I found on google(copy and pasted below). Wondering if the same would go with chameleons. I myself think I'm hungry sometimes when I just need water. Food carries moisture too so it'd make sense. I know chameleons could be completely different, I really have no clue, as I haven't had a dehydration issue with any of my chams. But assuming Scott's chameleons aren't severely dehydrated, I don't see why it would make sense for them not to eat. So many factors come into play and I'm not an expert, I guess just trying to think of it by common sense standards.

"When you do not drink enough water, your body receives mixed signals on hunger.Dehydration causes you to believe you need to eat when you really need liquid intake."

Your quote is about how PEOPLE interpret sensations in their bodies. Not the same thing at all. Dehydrated chameleons in general will not eat well.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Janet, I have the solid side dragonstrand breeders as well as a mist king that soaks the crap out of them. 15 minutes at 830. 10 minutes at 10. 5 minutes at noon, 10 minutes at 3, and 5 minutes at five. Cage is on the cool side. 68 near the bottom 70 near top. Basking lights are set up so that they can't get at anything more than 80 degrees tops and they are only on for 4 hours a day. I am wondering what the heck I am doing wrong!

That's more water than I give! Cut down the first misting to five minutes, the 10:00 a.m. misting to five minutes, drop the noon misting, five minutes at 3 and one minute at 6:00. As long as the cages don't get too hot that is lots of water.

 

[Matt Vanilla Gorilla]

Hang in there you will figure it out! You are sincere, intellgent and dedicated and you have someone who is good and experienced to help you!

 

[Scottsquatch]

I just wanted to declare here that I do not believe ANYTHING to be wrong with my chams. Janet is stand up person and was a joy to do business with. She answered a great many calls from me both before and after I got the chams. She raises quality animals and really cares about who they go too. I have a feeling there is something wrong on my end. Probably just a minor tweak in husbandry. I will keep this post current just in case any of you are curious about whether or not there is a problem, what it turns out to be, and how I resolve it.

 

[CJ's Exotics]

I just wanted to declare here that I do not believe ANYTHING to be wrong with my chams. Janet is stand up person and was a joy to do business with. She answered a great many calls from me both before and after I got the chams. She raises quality animals and really cares about who they go too. I have a feeling there is something wrong on my end. Probably just a minor tweak in husbandry. I will keep this post current just in case any of you are curious about whether or not there is a problem, what it turns out to be, and how I resolve it.

@jajeanpierre is very patient, I probably annoy her with my absurd amount of questions!

 

[jamest0o0]

You are comparing apples and oranges.

You are suggesting that graciliors are more sensitive and difficult to deal with and they just are not. Just because they are a montane species and have certain requirements have nothing to do with how hardy they are.
L

Not really. If you made a circle diagram, Panthers and veileds would overlap being able to handle either conditions, while montanes would only be able to handle heavy watering and cooler temperatures. To me that means one is more sensitive to changes. Even in this case, the Panthers are doing fine, and I'd be willing to bet they could handle more water just fine as well or on the other hand they could probably survive a pretty long time without water if they had to. I think we may just have two different ideas of the word "sensitive" lol.

And also I didn't say that made them more difficult. I really have no idea what's going on. Just throwing some thoughts out there to try and help a buddy out.

 

[jamest0o0]

Your quote is about how PEOPLE interpret sensations in their bodies. Not the same thing at all. Dehydrated chameleons in general will not eat well.

If you read my post, I was relating it to people, I even said that. Infact you did the same when you mentioned caregivers earlier on. I was asking a question through what would seem to me to be common sense. Not arguing with what you were saying... you could tell me all day that a dehydrated chameleon won't eat and I'd take your word for it because I know you're more knowledgeable than I am with this. I was trying to understand why because one would think dehydration would cause hunger in someone/something seeking to survive. Now a dying animal without appetite would be a different story of course!

 

[jajeanpierre]

Not really. If you made a circle diagram, Panthers and veileds would overlap being able to handle either conditions, while montanes would only be able to handle heavy watering and cooler temperatures. To me that means one is more sensitive to changes. Even in this case, the Panthers are doing fine, and I'd be willing to bet they could handle more water just fine as well or on the other hand they could probably survive a pretty long time without water if they had to. I think we may just have two different ideas of the word "sensitive" lol.

And also I didn't say that made them more difficult. I really have no idea what's going on. Just throwing some thoughts out there to try and help a buddy out.

I really don't want to engage in this kind of argument but you can't compare what is an optimum environment that is different as being more "senstitive."

But, using your parameters, a panther and a veiled need additional heat. They will not do well at normal house temperatures. In fact, when they are kept too cold, like all reptiles kept too cold their kidneys will shut down. On the other hand, a quad or gracilior will thrive in normal house temperatures even though their natural habitat is about 10F cooler than a normal house temperature. They will breed a temperatures of UNDER 50F to over 80F. I'd like to see a panther or a veiled do that.

So, I argue that in most houses a quad or a gracilior is a much easier animal to keep since you don't have to go crazy worrying about their basking temperature being too low or burning them because it is too high since you don't have to have a basking light.

What quads and graciliors need is water. That being said, most veileds and panthers I see on the list are kept too dry and are dehydrated.

Veileds and panthers don't seem to live very long in captivity. There are exceptions, but one breeder I know has a life expectancy of about 3 years. I have many of my wild caught imports that were imported as adults more than three years ago. The beautiful Pumpkin that I just posted a recent picture of in the photo section was imported over three years ago.

I've found that in general if a baby hatches, a baby grows up. There have been exceptions when I've had incubator malfunctions, but once hatched, even tiny babies will thrive and do well. I expect every egg to hatch and with the odd exception, they do.

They have proven to be a very hardy species.

 

[jajeanpierre]

If you read my post, I was relating it to people, I even said that. Infact you did the same when you mentioned caregivers earlier on. I was asking a question through what would seem to me to be common sense. Not arguing with what you were saying... you could tell me all day that a dehydrated chameleon won't eat and I'd take your word for it because I know you're more knowledgeable than I am with this. I was trying to understand why because one would think dehydration would cause hunger in someone/something seeking to survive. Now a dying animal without appetite would be a different story of course!

You were talking about the perception of hunger in humans, about how when a person felt a sensation of thirst they misidentified it as feeling hungry. There is a lot of reasons why, one being that people in the US do not tolerate being hungry and I bet that they just misread that sensation. There is a lot of emotion around being hungry in America. Animals don't have that baggage.

All you have to do is look in the animal world to know that animals do not eat when they are thirsty. If I put a hard worked horse in a stall, they drink not eat. Same with a dog. When they are thirsty they drink and don't confuse thirst with hunger.