my..chameleon

[Chris Anderson]

This guy has a lot of chameleons that you can only get from smuggling. They are not exported from Madagascar legally, so everywhere. Although there are claims to some being legal and born in different places of the world and sent to America and the like, they really aren't legal at all. Do a search on parsons chameleons and you can read up on some of the horrors of smuggling.


I'm not an expert, but that is my understanding of it.

Pssh,

Careful about generalizing too much on this topic. With C. p. parsonii there is some possibility of acquiring completely legal captive bred animals as they have been bred into F2 from completely legal bloodlines. As a result there is the potential that legal animals were available to establish breeding programs in some of these other countries for this species. These other species (C. oshaughnessyi and F. rhinoceratus in particular) are a completely different story.

Chris

 

[pssh]

So then these are legal?

 

[Brad Ramsey]

So then these are legal?

He didn't say that.
He said be careful.
You will notice that I have never posted on a parsonii thread. This is because I know virtually nothing about the species and certainly nothing about importing/exporting or the legalities of such matters.

-Brad

 

[Chris Anderson]

So then these are legal?

Reading comprehension 101:

"With C. p. parsonii there is some possibility of acquiring completely legal captive bred animals" = Can not say with definitive certainty C. p. parsonii are all illegal.

"other species (C. oshaughnessyi and F. rhinoceratus in particular) are a completely different story" = Not captively bred since 1995 ban and legal bloodlines questionable at best.

Chris

 

[Chameron]

So I might be able to get them!?

under certain circumstances?

=]=]=]

 

[pssh]

I know he didn't say these were legal, but since he said these were different there was a possibility. I don't know everything and I like to learn, so when I am incorrect it would be nice if either of you could point me in the right direction instead of just saying no or you're wrong or whatever else.

I like to learn, as I'm sure many members on here like to do. I know you probably don't like me, or at least don't like talking to me, so to make the conversation short and to the point, next time tell me why I have to be careful. How can I be if I don't know what I did wrong?

How the heck was I supposed to know that their bloodlines were questionable at best because none were bred since the ban from 'they're a whole different story?' I'm not a mind reader... So don't expect me to be one, then act like I'm stupid because I didn't understand what 'they're a whole different story' meant. You catch more flies with honey.

 

[Chameron]

pssh I think you are a mind reader =]

jk

I agree with your point I am also here to learn.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Pssh,

I did tell you exactly why you needed to be careful saying that they are all illegal. The legality issue in this thread was raised about 4 different species and I clarified that C. p. parsonii is not as simplistic of a case. No need to be a mind reader, its written right there in front of you.

Chris

 

[Chameron]

I would like to give everyone a moment of thanks for teaching me sooo much with this thread. I never knew that there was a possibality of illegal/smuggling with chams.

 

[eisentrauti]

Please guys, read the posts of Chris carefully. The parsoniis could be legal. Parsoniis are breed in very limited numbers here in Europe, I think in the USA too. From my knowledge the other ones could be legal too, but only theoretically. It's just a question of paper managment

 

[Chameron]

I am mainly interested in the C. oshaughnessyi.

 

[eisentrauti]

Forget it

 

[Chameron]

=[ i know...

 

[Todnedo]

Wow, Mike. Calumma parsonii, C. globifer, Furcifer rhinoceratus, and now C. oshaughnessyi? You sure have some talented smugglers!

Holy smokes Calumma Guantanamo

 

[Dave Legacy]

Ignorance is bliss. You might be surprised to find out that a number of specimens that your local supplier might be smuggled and labeled "Captive-bred". I'll give a totally random example of how something like this might take place:

* A poacher collects some frilled dragons in Australia.

* Frilled dragons are then smuggled out to Thailand where a supplier of smuggled reptiles is working under a false cover of "Reptile Farm". This individual probably has some sort of small-scale government backing to keep he/she out of trouble and under the radar.

* The Frilled Dragons are now smuggled into the United States with certification stating they are farm raised.

With something like a Frilled Dragon that is commonly bred in captivity there isn't much reason to suspect that it's smuggled. There are also legitimate breeding facilities in other countries. However, with something like a C. oshaughnessy one can safely assume that it has a sketchy past.

Just gotta be aware before you buy. One also needs to be a responsible hobbyist which means not supporting the collection of compromised species. Half of the battle against poaching is cutting the demand.

Best regards,
Dave

 

[Littlehorn]

The C. oshaughnessy is smuggled in.

While a small percentage of the C. parsonii are legal (with documents from the government), but I have to be honest with you all that over 80% of the "illegal" parsonii can not live more than 2 months once they arrive in HKG.

The main reason is, one single C. parsonii with legal documents is well worth over HKD45,000 (~USD6,000) while the smuggled illegal ones are only ~HKD3-4,000 (~USD500), so the cost for getting an illegal ones are quite cheap and many people are willing to "try-out" the specie. I have numerous experience of people who are beginners with chameleons looking for a C. parsonii as their first "pet", and heard many incidents that their parsonii died within weeks.

There is a hell lots of teaching that needs to be made in which "we" should not value the animal just by itz price. It takes time, and itz better than 10 years ago, but still a long way to go.
But the good news is, there are a few "REAL" breeding facilities of reptile in HKG, and have been quite successful with Ball Pythons, Vieled Chameleon, Panther Chameleon and Various geckoes.