Much Profit In Breeding?

[Cainschams]

One thing I DO know, is that many of the really reputable, BIG name breeders, take a hit once in a while. They are succesfull because they know their reptation for quality is more important than any individual sale. If you're on the small scale, that one, rare DOA can really hurt. It would really hurt me - I try to make some money, but a single DOA animal is an expensive hit - shipping isnt' cheap - especially if I'm not dealing in quantity. Plus, it's not like I have a bunch of animals sitting as backups - I had waiting lists for males a few years ago! One DOA would really hurt me. Some breeders, not so much - they might even SEND dead animals. I've seen people almost puke when opeing a box. The dealer sent them an already-ripe dead snake.

Very well put. actually everything you said but this sticks out to me. I was a wreck when I shipped my first package out this WINTER with 3 baby panthers in it. I know that people ship in the cold all the time and Iwas by far not shipping in too cold of weather but like you said one DOA would hurt me severely. I too dont have a bunch of back ups if something were to go wrong and the waste of a perfectly healthy life is just obserd. Of course I dont send out sub par animals because I know this would only hurt my rep. I do this for a hobby, have by far not broke even or will break even, especially at the price I sell them (hope it doesnt piss anyone off but) but its fun and raising the babies has givin me so much more experience and confidence to go onto the next projects I want to start. I want to get into the more rare species which in turn when I breed I will make even less money but its the joy of making people happy and experience that makes losing some money worth it. NO HOBBY IS CHEAP!! I play guitar also and have quite a bit of equipment and lots of money tied up into. I dont think playing small club shows is going to pay my equipment off anytime soon but ITS FUN!!!

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Well, I'm speaking about the big cricket breeders. I've been to a smaller, NC cricket farm. The space required to bree crickets in quantity is astonishing, as the sheer volume of insects required is enormous. My trash-can cricket bin smells bad enough with 1000 live crickets in it. I don't want to explain the ambiance of a cricket farm in carolina coastal plain summer heat. It's not just the crickets, but the flies... My God. It was a nastier place than a turkey slaughterhouse I have seen.

 

[dodolah]

Well, I'm speaking about the big cricket breeders. I've been to a smaller, NC cricket farm. The space required to bree crickets in quantity is astonishing, as the sheer volume of insects required is enormous. My trash-can cricket bin smells bad enough with 1000 live crickets in it. I don't want to explain the ambiance of a cricket farm in carolina coastal plain summer heat. It's not just the crickets, but the flies... My God. It was a nastier place than a turkey slaughterhouse I have seen.

eeppp
thanks for the image, i think i puke a bit reading the post

 

[BocaJan]

If you would like a business, make cages! LLLReptile is about the only reasonable place to get the cages. I understand they are fairly easy to make and the supplies are cheap to purchase. Once you have a pattern you are on a roll.

 

[TylerStewart]

If you would like a business, make cages! LLLReptile is about the only reasonable place to get the cages. I understand they are fairly easy to make and the supplies are cheap to purchase. Once you have a pattern you are on a roll.

I wish I could agree with that, but after trying it and learning what a pain in the butt it is, I said "screw that." If you could get cheap labor to build it in your garage and they actually were functional (pre drilling holes is just about the hardest part to get perfect), you might make a few bucks per cage. My time was worth much more than the profit I was making by building my own cages, even buying the materials in bulk from the manufacturer. Plus, I spent $1500 or so getting the tools I thought I needed. At least now, I can build some nice furniture with it, and there won't be angry customers that call complaining because their pre drilled holes were 1/8" off. Even if you can get your materials down really low priced, you have a bunch of time into each cage screening 6 panels and hoping they're all nice and straight, plus the packaging of them all - it's just a mess. You eventually get a process down for each cage size, then people start asking for custom sizes.

You forgot Tyler that both Chams and Girlfriends/Wives will take half your equity if you aren't careful! Hahaha. Your comparison cracked me up man.

Yeah, thanks for the reminder. My first marriage was the worst $100,000 mistake I ever made. I was trying to focus on the years after, and now the years to come. I bought my new house by myself as a single man!

I've always thought crickets would be a good business to get into. Yeah, it's a mess and takes up tons of space, but if someone can get themselves into a regular production of all the sizes, and snag a few decent accounts (start offering prices to the smaller reptile breeders), I think it would be easy money. Once built, you'd have essentially no expenses for a very high profit margin. You can easily control inventory during slow times since your inventory revolves around a 6 week lifespan. You'd never be stuck with a bunch of hungry baby chameleons needing individual cages. It would be difficult to do small scale, but someone with a leased space (because you wouldn't want it in your house) and an employee or two could make some good money at it. Plus, it'll always be in demand. It'd be easy to add superworms and mealworms to the lineup also. I personally would ditch the silkworm idea since it's a much smaller market for a high maintenance and somewhat sensitive feeder, but that's just me. I like being able to sneeze in the same room as my feeders without them all dying off.

 

[Dave]

I personally would ditch the silkworm idea since it's a much smaller market for a high maintenance and somewhat sensitive feeder, but that's just me. I like being able to sneeze in the same room as my feeders without them all dying off.

LOL!! Pretty much....I sometimes wonder what I was thinking, but I enjoy it for the most part and it's a challenge

-Dave

 

[chequepoint]

The trick with any business is really to have the money to do it right up front.

Even most of the people here who claim to have made profit, don't understand the meaning of profit. When you compare their net revenues to their opportunity cost (ie: what their time would have made them working at mcdonalds, other things they could have invested their cash in and earned during that time, etc) they still lost money.

 

[BocaJan]

You are telling it like it is chequepoint.

 

[Dave]

The trick with any business is really to have the money to do it right up front.

Even most of the people here who claim to have made profit, don't understand the meaning of profit. When you compare their net revenues to their opportunity cost (ie: what their time would have made them working at mcdonalds, other things they could have invested their cash in and earned during that time, etc) they still lost money.

Which is why you really need to enjoy what you're doing lol

 

[Champhibians]

Ok here it goes. I have no competiton where I live with other breeders(other than going to reptile shows). I had a job as a general manager of a sub shop called Jimmy Johns(some of you might know it). I made around $1000 every 2 weeks. I quit it to focus on my chameleons and frogs. And I make a little less as a breeder. So it really all comes down to quality of life for me. Its much better to make a little less money, and love life, than hating every day.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

The trick with any business is really to have the money to do it right up front.

Even most of the people here who claim to have made profit, don't understand the meaning of profit. When you compare their net revenues to their opportunity cost (ie: what their time would have made them working at mcdonalds, other things they could have invested their cash in and earned during that time, etc) they still lost money.

I see what you're getting at - but you're a tad off. I'm doing a hobby, one I enjoy. This hobby takes time and money and effort. I'm going to do it. I'm spending the time, the money and the effort. The time is paid off by enjoyment and relaxation - it's free. The effort, same deal. The money - that's out of pocket. But if I make that back in the end, it's profitable. Being that it's my hobby, and I keep things small and under control, any time and effort I spend is not lost income - because it's FUN!

Now, you get so busy, you start spending so much time that it becomes a drain, and it starts becoming work... and the profits turn out to be less than you'd make at your job... then it's not profitable.

Tyler - I did the same thing with the cages. My costs were low (or so I thought). I was able to get the stuff for cages for $30 or so (can't remember), and sell them for $100.00. Profit! Yeah. Right...

Now, learning to run screen is a handy skill that I wouldn't have learned otherwise. And the ability to make screen cages to my own specifications is also darn handy. But the time required to put these things together was significant. I even made little jigs so I could pre-drill the holes easier. easier, but not easy.

Of course, if I had a large volume of sales, I probably could make them and make money. But I'd spend so much time making the bloody cages, I'd be making so much less money than I would if I was working at Mcdonalds.

AND, 1 or 2 cages at a time, for myself or a customer, was really fun. 10 or 12 of them was not. opposite of fun.

Bad part: Tony Cueto's show was a disaster - 12 or so booths, and maybe 500 attendees (down from about 10,000 in past years). I sold one freaking cage with a chameleon.

Good part: I've got all the screen cages I need for now - and the suckers last a long time! so, it was a failure at making extra cash, but it was a good thing for my hobby. ...pissed off my wife though... still paying for that.

Now, chequepoint, if I were doing this full time, the amount of time I put into it would defiantly mean I'd be making a lot less than I do at my (former) job(laid off January 1st). But, since (and ONLY since), the time and effort I put into it is enjoyable hobby-time(and I really don't put that much time into it), it's profitable.

I think this thread has covered so many aspects of the finances of chameleon breeding, it should be stickied! There are so many people who get into breeding for money, only to be overwhelmed and discredited.

I remember selling books at the Tampa show a few years back. A guy bought a bunch of old TFH books - told me he was getting into reptile sales. Despite the fact that those books were nearly worthless, he still wanted them. As all he wanted to know was what their names were - so he cold sell them. That's it. Just a way of making money. The sad thing is, so many of the reptile show dealers are just like that (you can tell by talking to them). They are in it because it's a transient business - they don't have to worry about returns, guarantees, receipts, or return business. There are a lot of people selling at shows that chose the industry simply because it's a fringe industry. There's a lot of shady stuff in the industry, simply because it's not mainstream. And it's sad that it attracts non-mainstream morality.

I am a devout capitalist, but I must admit that I hold this industry to a higher standard than most industries. It's because I am in the hobby first, business second. I get pissed when I see someone get taken advantage of, legally or not. There are few reptile dealers, and not many more breeders, that I trust enough to recommend. But just look at how many there ARE out there.

I mean, jeeze - for as small as the herp industry is(relatively), it still needs something like the BOI on fauna - and that is a busy little forum there.

There's a lot of snakes in this industry.

 

[chequepoint]

You can rationalize things however you want, if you can make money doing one thing, but you could make more money doing something else. Choosing the first is economically inefficient. You're paying an increased opportunity cost to do something you enjoy instead of something that you don't. Its fine. But empirically a bad decision.

I make several bad decisions like that with my life every day, so I understand.

If someone came to me with $100,000 to start a business (obviously a low number to start a business), chameleon breeding would be way down the list of things that I would recommend from a profitability standpoint.

None of this means that I won't someday breed my chameleons, or that anyone shouldn't. It does mean that it is not the solution to your financial woes.

If I were going to breed chameleons profitably, and ethically at the same time, I'd need roughly a million dollars and no plans on breaking even for several years. A custom facility in florida, with lots of breeder stock, and a separate insect operation on the side to start.. Along with a few employees and a vet on retainer. Plus a true marketing plan and advertising budget, and a business partner with serious reptile business experience.

 

[NewOwner]

Profit In Breeding? PLEASE RE-READ

Hi First thing id like to say is, thanks for helping me on my thread 'Much profit in breeding' BUT i dont think i typed it write, or you guys understood...

AND

Please, Mods, anyone, please dont move this thread... i am just redoing it in a more understandable way then my last you cant delete my other thread though please? 'Much profit in breeding' <--- Delete that.

So here it is..

I am 15 years old, i am absolutely in love with chameleons.. me and my mom have a project planned on starting breeding veiled chams, then moving to nosy be panthers. The plan is so that it can become a great, Fun, Rewarding Hobby.. Everyone on my last thread thought i was doing it JUST For the money Which i am NOT So please help me out on planning this.. i know many of you dont think i ready which is why we are waiting months til our 4 month veiled female is sexually mature..

As for the $$$$$ part of things, we are doing this for my future Job i geuss we could call it, im studying to be a massage therapist.. and work from home. The money i get from breeding chameleons will go to my college fund, So i can pay for college... and HOPEFULLY becomme a massage therapist...

I think that pretty much covers that.

My Questions Are...

~1- Is there any profit i might get from breeding veiled chams, and possibly making a Chameleon website for our selling..

~2- How can i make my own 'Egg Incubation Medium'

~3- I would like any tips from the experts of breeding about, Temps for incubation (Ive heard many temps..) What type of Ground... Uhm... Anything,

I will post more questions on this forum

PLEASE DO NOT MOVE THIS THREAD!!! Thank you,

-Levi

 

[royden]

I have talked to some of the most succesful breeders and they all say the same thing.

You will not make money selling chameleons. However..it may offset the cost of your very rewarding hobby, making it even more rewarding.

Veileds are going for $35-$45 each these days. You'll put way *way* more money into your college fund working at mcdonalds.

Nobody is just in it for the money. We all love chameleons here.

There should be lots of hobby breeders here to help you out. But if you don't get the answers to your questions, please use the search function. THere's a wealth of info in old topics if you search for it.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I answered this question in the previous thread. you're restating / reposting has changed noting for my reply, except to suggest that you actually listen to the advise previously provided by so many people and stop thinking all the answers you want to hear will fall into your lap. Some simple research and reading on your part will provide you with the egg laying medium information.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

You can rationalize things however you want, if you can make money doing one thing, but you could make more money doing something else. Choosing the first is economically inefficient. You're paying an increased opportunity cost to do something you enjoy instead of something that you don't. Its fine. But empirically a bad decision.

I make several bad decisions like that with my life every day, so I understand.

If someone came to me with $100,000 to start a business (obviously a low number to start a business), chameleon breeding would be way down the list of things that I would recommend from a profitability standpoint.

None of this means that I won't someday breed my chameleons, or that anyone shouldn't. It does mean that it is not the solution to your financial woes.

If I were going to breed chameleons profitably, and ethically at the same time, I'd need roughly a million dollars and no plans on breaking even for several years. A custom facility in florida, with lots of breeder stock, and a separate insect operation on the side to start.. Along with a few employees and a vet on retainer. Plus a true marketing plan and advertising budget, and a business partner with serious reptile business experience.

To add to that: I find my hobby much more fun and interesting when I'm not inundated with babies. Sure, selling them is fun (especially at shows, where I can talk to people), but it's added stress. That's one of the reasons I keep it small. I've thought about becoming a bigger scale veiled breeder a few times over the years. In the end, I really don't want to HAVE to sell my animals. If I have more than 20-30 babies at any given moment, it becomes a chore(veileds anyway), and the whole thing is much less fun.

I think, 3-4 female veileds is my limit - and I only breed them once a year anyway. Of course, I'm oping to breed some other species as well. I used to say that my calyptratus financed my montane species.

 

[chequepoint]

As for the $$$$$ part of things, we are doing this for my future Job i geuss we could call it, im studying to be a massage therapist.. and work from home. The money i get from breeding chameleons will go to my college fund, So i can pay for college... and HOPEFULLY becomme a massage therapist...

This is exactly why I've been posting the things I have.

I'm going to be very clear.
1) You will not making money breeding chameleons.
2) You are too inexperienced to even consider breeding chameleons at this point.
3) Get a job.
4) Study hard, and get a scholarship.

Seriously, the path to financial independence is not through engaging in a very expensive hobby. And no offense, I'm only judging this based off of myself at your age, but your life can change so much between when this animal lays the eggs, and when they hatch. Who knows if you'll really want to be raising up 40 baby chameleons when you're 16 or 17? I know my life was way too crazy with school and life to be able to deal with that kind of stress on top of all of it.

To me it sounds like a disaster from every possible angle.

 

[mattjillson]

Our friend from Nashville makes 4 very good points. You should concentrate on a W2 night and weekend job before trying to breed chameleons to pay for College. Really, get a job bussing tables. Easy work, you'll make decent tips in a nice Restaurant and if you're lucky get a chance to see how a professional Kitchen works. Do the Cham thing on the side for fun and if it pays any bills, be pleasantly surprised.

 

[laurie]

Anybody try to breed their own feeders? If you have the space you could get a cycle of crickets going by breeding them, saving you money on buying them. (just buying the gutload) Thats what I am trying to do now.

I have 16 panther eggs due to hatch in April. I have several bins of baby crickets and cricket eggs, as well as big crickets for my adults.

My hopes are by the time the babys come I will have a cycle of crickets.

I am also trying to breed silk worms. Im lucky enough to have a mulberry tree in the front yard.

I tried to breed the super worms too but I gave up on that. I got them to turn into beetles but never saw any eggs.

Anyway.. it sounds like a lot of work. and it is. but I love it. Its a hobby/addiction

How do you get them to breed? I am trying with no luck. I have room just no talent or maybe luck

 

[laurie]

I'm reasonably sure everything in this paragraph is wrong. Including how hardy baby jacksons are.

Quite frankly, The economy is tanking, and the market is over-saturated with hobby breeders. If someone came to me with a business plan to raise chameleons right now I'd laugh at them.

To do it for a living you'd need to be set up like Jim at the Chameleon Company, and I've even noticed a steady drop in his prices this year.

The reality of animal breeding is that if you truly love animals, it isn't the business for you. To be a successful business person, when that $35 dollar chameleon that has already eaten $15 worth of food and used $5 in electricity gets sick and needs $60 in vet treatment, you have to be able to let it die.

Its just like if you're a vet, and someone brings in a sick animal with no way to pay for it, you have to be able to send them back out the door. Its not for everyone.

The pet industry is a business, animals are inventory, and profit is the ultimate goal. If you're the kind of person that can handle it, more power to you. I'm certainly not.

Does that mean I won't breed my chams? No. I might someday. But it does mean that I'm prepared to take care of every animal that I bring into the world, regardless of what it costs me. I will most likely lose money.

You have just put into words my love of chams. Anyone who could "let one die should not own one. Great description, thanks for taking the time to put it down so clearly.