mixing panthers
- Thread starter inferno
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AncientCritters
Established Member
You can mix different locales but from what I undestand its usually frowned upon.
Robert
Robert
Noseyambilobe22
New Member
as far as i know, panthers are like dart frogs, mixing is usually frowned upon, i have a 75%ambilobe/25%nosey be, and i will probably end up trying to breed him. I know chameleonsonly.com sells a handful of different crosses that they sell for cheaper than pure locales. i guess its just personal preference.
titan501x
New Member
U've got dart frogs?as far as i know, panthers are like dart frogs, mixing is usually frowned upon, i have a 75%ambilobe/25%nosey be, and i will probably end up trying to breed him. I know chameleonsonly.com sells a handful of different crosses that they sell for cheaper than pure locales. i guess its just personal preference.
schegini14
New Member
what about mixing a sunburst veiled with a normal veiled?
Noseyambilobe22
New Member
no i do not keep darts, but a buch of my friends do, to many fruit flies and what not. i think alot of people share scrappys opinion. and i do understnad that people want to keep the localespure, probably a good idea. but i agree with this to,http://chameleonsonly.com/panther_crosses.htm, like i said in my last post, some breeders are different and then i asked my friend noah at 2by2, adn he said he was trying to mix all kinds of crosses to see what would come out. once again, not saying that its 100%correct to nix the locales, but think of what some of the crosses could look like...
Jordan
New Member
There are no legitimit differences in veileds in a manner that you are speaking of. There are two differing sub-species. These do in fact posses slightly different physical appearances and some what different color patterns. Only one is held in captivity the Chamaeleo Calyptratus Calyptratus as far as I know. These all live in Yemen. In this sub-species there are massive coloration differances. This is most likely controlled by the mother and the variation would be in the mitochondrial DNA, not the DNA held in the nucleus. This means it would change from cell to cell slightly and an entire clutch could look completely different from one another. The terms like sunburst are just marketing names. I think that these names came about to try to capitalize on the popularity of the panthers' famed differances. Now the panthers do have direct color differances in conjunction to what location that they came from naturally. If people frown upon the mixing of the differant types panthers it would simply be because it would not happen naturally. Other people simply do not care about the mixing of the differing panthers. They do tend to sell cheaper and produce dramatic coloration when they come of age just like the orginal.
Some people think that breeding the different panther morphs together will either result in weaker offspring or sterile offspring. I don't know of any scientific studies that prove or disprove it.
http://www.answers.com/topic/panther-chameleon
"there is anecdotal evidence that interbreeding specimens from distant locales results in sterile offspring"
http://www.answers.com/topic/panther-chameleon
"there is anecdotal evidence that interbreeding specimens from distant locales results in sterile offspring"
This is always a touchy subject with people..............but from the understanding of Panthers I have..............they are all the same species completely and just developed different coloration out of adaptation to a locale.
So its not really possible to sterilize them by breeding them together.......
Im one of those people that like to mix and match....my snakes have been interspecies bred, cornsnake to kingsnake to produce jungle corn which was supposed to be sterile and then Ive crossed them back to corns for really wild colors and proved they were fertile...........and Ive used other species to mix in as well.
The most important thing to remember is that you have to be upstanding and always divulge what you did to get that animal. that way if someone else doesnt want it or wants to breed it, they know the history as well.
There are some real nazis on the subject and I wont debate it with people.........it is what it is. If nature says it can happen there shouldnt be a problem.
So its not really possible to sterilize them by breeding them together.......
Im one of those people that like to mix and match....my snakes have been interspecies bred, cornsnake to kingsnake to produce jungle corn which was supposed to be sterile and then Ive crossed them back to corns for really wild colors and proved they were fertile...........and Ive used other species to mix in as well.
The most important thing to remember is that you have to be upstanding and always divulge what you did to get that animal. that way if someone else doesnt want it or wants to breed it, they know the history as well.
There are some real nazis on the subject and I wont debate it with people.........it is what it is. If nature says it can happen there shouldnt be a problem.
Imagesrdecieving
New Member
I spoke with someone about this and they framed out the arguement of those who frown on mixing locales pretty well. He said that is was really all about a fear of not being able to get a specific locale if importing rules became any stricter in the future. He says that it would make sense to begin crossing only after we are 100% confident of having a large gene pool outside of Madagascar to ensure that breeding projects would be able to continue without a problem if the importation of panthers were to be scaled back.
Imagesrdecieving
New Member
sorry double post
Even though the different morphs of panther chameleons are considered to be the same species so far, when/if some of them have been too far separated geographically for too long, allopatric speciation can occur.
Allopatric speciation: "It's a bit like a character in a movie going off and having adventures that change him so drastically that when he returns, the folks in his hometown no longer recognize the way he looks and behaves. The biological equivalent is "allopatric speciation," an evolutionary process in which one species divides into two because the original homogenous population has become separated and both groups diverge from each other".
"Often this type of speciation occurs in three steps. First, the populations become physically separated, often by a long, slow geological process like an uplift of land, the movement of a glacier, or formation of a body of water. Next, the separated populations diverge, through changes in mating tactics or use of their habitat. Third, they become reproductively separated such that they cannot interbreed and exchange genes. "
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/05/2/l_052_03.html
Gary Ferguson is quoted...
"Regarding "locality hybridization", with wide-ranging species, you may be dealing with several cryptic but full, reproductively-incompatible species. I believe this to be the case with panther chameleons and probably with F. oustaleti and F. lateralis in Madagascar and C. dilepis in Africa. The bottom line here is that the most likely best-possible result of interspecific hybridization of closely-related species is a hardy hybrid, but one that reproduces poorly or not at all (mule). So, breeders of wide-ranging species should always try to breed only individuals from the same localities, if they want multiple generations."
http://www.chameleonnews.com/interviewfer.html
Here are examples of divergence where the species no longer recognizes members of its own species...
"Where the birds meet in Siberia, their songs are so different that they do not recognize each other as mates or competitors. They act like separate species, and the genetic evidence supports that conclusion."
"These results demonstrate how small evolutionary changes can lead to the differences that cause reproductive isolation between species, just as Darwin envisioned."
http://www-biology.ucsd.edu/news/article_011701.html
"Although these fish look alike and have the same DNA genetic makeup, they have very different electrical signals and will only mate with fish that produce the same signals. Cornell researchers believe that these different electrical signals are the fishes' first step in diverging into separate species."
http://www.lifesciences.cornell.edu/otherSources/sept06/evolution.htm
Inbreeding and crossbreeding can produced some amazing new animals....but it can also result in problems. Inbreeding can double up genetic problems. It can increase reproductive failures. Crossbreeding (hybridization) can produce new traits may not all be desirable as well as the amazing combinations.
Interspecies breeding has worked for many species, but doesn't work for all species. Here are some things that prevent it from working. When mating rituals differ the animals won't recognize each other. Breeding cycles may differ so one is ready to mate when the other is not. The sperm may not be accepted by the egg...they may not recognize each other...enzymes may differ that prevent the sperm from being able to enter the egg. The immune system of one may reject the sperm/egg of another as a foreign body. Offspring may be weak and not survive.
So if you decide to inbreed or crossbreed, be aware of the possibilities and problems and as hybrid said..."divulge what you did to get that animal" to people you are selling them to.
Allopatric speciation: "It's a bit like a character in a movie going off and having adventures that change him so drastically that when he returns, the folks in his hometown no longer recognize the way he looks and behaves. The biological equivalent is "allopatric speciation," an evolutionary process in which one species divides into two because the original homogenous population has become separated and both groups diverge from each other".
"Often this type of speciation occurs in three steps. First, the populations become physically separated, often by a long, slow geological process like an uplift of land, the movement of a glacier, or formation of a body of water. Next, the separated populations diverge, through changes in mating tactics or use of their habitat. Third, they become reproductively separated such that they cannot interbreed and exchange genes. "
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/05/2/l_052_03.html
Gary Ferguson is quoted...
"Regarding "locality hybridization", with wide-ranging species, you may be dealing with several cryptic but full, reproductively-incompatible species. I believe this to be the case with panther chameleons and probably with F. oustaleti and F. lateralis in Madagascar and C. dilepis in Africa. The bottom line here is that the most likely best-possible result of interspecific hybridization of closely-related species is a hardy hybrid, but one that reproduces poorly or not at all (mule). So, breeders of wide-ranging species should always try to breed only individuals from the same localities, if they want multiple generations."
http://www.chameleonnews.com/interviewfer.html
Here are examples of divergence where the species no longer recognizes members of its own species...
"Where the birds meet in Siberia, their songs are so different that they do not recognize each other as mates or competitors. They act like separate species, and the genetic evidence supports that conclusion."
"These results demonstrate how small evolutionary changes can lead to the differences that cause reproductive isolation between species, just as Darwin envisioned."
http://www-biology.ucsd.edu/news/article_011701.html
"Although these fish look alike and have the same DNA genetic makeup, they have very different electrical signals and will only mate with fish that produce the same signals. Cornell researchers believe that these different electrical signals are the fishes' first step in diverging into separate species."
http://www.lifesciences.cornell.edu/otherSources/sept06/evolution.htm
Inbreeding and crossbreeding can produced some amazing new animals....but it can also result in problems. Inbreeding can double up genetic problems. It can increase reproductive failures. Crossbreeding (hybridization) can produce new traits may not all be desirable as well as the amazing combinations.
Interspecies breeding has worked for many species, but doesn't work for all species. Here are some things that prevent it from working. When mating rituals differ the animals won't recognize each other. Breeding cycles may differ so one is ready to mate when the other is not. The sperm may not be accepted by the egg...they may not recognize each other...enzymes may differ that prevent the sperm from being able to enter the egg. The immune system of one may reject the sperm/egg of another as a foreign body. Offspring may be weak and not survive.
So if you decide to inbreed or crossbreed, be aware of the possibilities and problems and as hybrid said..."divulge what you did to get that animal" to people you are selling them to.
great post kinyonga
Like I said, I personaly dont mind it. I find it fascinating that its possible and the bizzare things created can be quite beautiful.
Slightly off topic but if you take a "blizzard" cornsnake and breed it to an albino cal king.........you get the first gen of really ugly snakes.......brownish with greyish black spotting...........but breed that back to say a red albino corn or a "sunglow" corn and you get brilliant and beautiful snakes that are stunning examples of what nature can produce........given mans interference.
I often wonder what is possible with panthers..........given the huge array of colors they are capable of.
Like I said, I personaly dont mind it. I find it fascinating that its possible and the bizzare things created can be quite beautiful.
Slightly off topic but if you take a "blizzard" cornsnake and breed it to an albino cal king.........you get the first gen of really ugly snakes.......brownish with greyish black spotting...........but breed that back to say a red albino corn or a "sunglow" corn and you get brilliant and beautiful snakes that are stunning examples of what nature can produce........given mans interference.
I often wonder what is possible with panthers..........given the huge array of colors they are capable of.