maybe room for one more....

[finalflash]

So, I hate to see these little guys in poor setups in chain stores. I am thinking i may have to rescue this little on as i do have a free enclosure (yea that's my story)....
so looking at the stubby horns and colors is this maybe a young Machakos Hills or maybe something else? .... the Jackson i have looks nothing like this much longer horns very green and bit of blue on his head... so another sub species would be a double bonus lol i have attached the 2 pics i took of him the other evening as they were closing ... not great pics but maybe a good baseline for speculation

 

[Andrew1283]

Unfortunately when you “rescue” this one you just perpetuate the cycle and in many ways encourage that retailer to do more of the same. I would give it a hard pass and buy from a responsible breeder for the sake of the species. God only knows how many of his hatch mates died in poor, over-crowded conditions just so he could end up in that plastic box with a water dish. To big box stores, they’re nothing more than a UPC # in a spreadsheet. You add another mark on the sale column as opposed to the shrink column.

 

[Beman]

I think it is always admirable to rescue one if you feel called to do so. My reasoning is if you can save one why not. Yes they will get another animal to fill the cage. But they will do this regardless of if the prior animal was purchased or died. It is business and that is all it is to stores. So if you feel called to bring home one to give it a fighting chance at a good life and can provide all it needs then why not? Your one purchase changes nothing for the store. In fact if you do not purchase that changes nothing for the store. Again it is business and the cham is a number. The business has one mission and that is all, profit. They write off dead animals. They do not care. So while your purchase will then open up a cage for another animal it also gives the chameleon a real chance that it may very well not get if you don't.

So in my opinion do what you feel called to do. And if it is bringing home another chameleon just make sure you take the precautions such as keeping it separate in quarantine from your other reptiles until you get a fecal back. This way you are not worrying about cross contamination of anything.

 

[Spookies]

What a pretty little fella, but the fact that he closes his eyes while the lights are on is a little bit concerning. I would suggest to pass on him, but that is up to you. In my experiences when I see chameleons closes their eyes like that, it mostly end in the result of death. Poor dude :c

 

[Andrew1283]

I think it is always admirable to rescue one if you feel called to do so. My reasoning is if you can save one why not. Yes they will get another animal to fill the cage. But they will do this regardless of if the prior animal was purchased or died. It is business and that is all it is to stores. So if you feel called to bring home one to give it a fighting chance at a good life and can provide all it needs then why not? Your one purchase changes nothing for the store. In fact if you do not purchase that changes nothing for the store. Again it is business and the cham is a number. The business has one mission and that is all, profit. They write off dead animals. They do not care. So while your purchase will then open up a cage for another animal it also gives the chameleon a real chance that it may very well not get if you don't.

So in my opinion do what you feel called to do. And if it is bringing home another chameleon just make sure you take the precautions such as keeping it separate in quarantine from your other reptiles until you get a fecal back. This way you are not worrying about cross contamination of anything.

If no one is buying them, the retailer won’t keep them in stock.

However we all know how it goes….

The chameleon grows and grows until they’re no longer an adorable baby that’s worthy of an impulse purchase at full price.

Now they’re a full sized adult, especially veiled chameleons which can be mature at 6 months. The retailer has to mark down the price of the animal significantly.

And what happens? You get someone buying a chameleon for a rock bottom price of $40.00 along with a $150.00 chameleon kit and some crickets. The kind of person who would buy a chameleon for $40.00 but not $85.00 is the kind of person who doesn’t have the finances to properly care for a chameleon.

The already immunocompromised, malnourished, and stressed chameleon quickly gets sick in their new inadequate home and dies due to lack of proper husbandry.

Then the purchaser gets on the forums to talk about what went wrong, gets up to speed on the true cost of the hobby and either decides to call it quits or gets on board with the moderators’ suggestions. (God bless the mods on this site by the way.)

Then that person buys another chameleon from a reputable breeder.

We can’t say someone oh well someone is going to buy whether or not I do. We can’t say our purchase have no impact on corporate greed. When know better so we have to be better.

 

[stickenstein]

If no one is buying them, the retailer won’t keep them in stock.

However we all know how that goes….

The chameleon grows and grows until they’re no longer an adorable baby that’s worthy of an impulse purchase at full price.

Now they’re a full sized adult, especially veiled chameleons which can be mature at 6 months. The retailer has to mark down the price of the animal significantly.

And what happens? You get someone buying a chameleon for a rock bottom price of $40.00 along with a $150.00 chameleon kit and some crickets. The kind of person who would buy a chameleon for $40.00 and not $85.00 is the kind of person who doesn’t have the finances to properly care for a chameleon.

The already immunocompromised chameleon quickly gets sick, and dies due to lack of proper husbandry.

Then the purchaser gets on the forums to talk about what went wrong.

Then that person buys another chameleon from a reputable breeder.

We can’t say someone oh well someone is going to buy whether or not I do. We can’t say our purchase have no impact on corporate greed. When know better so we have to be better.

I totally get what you’re saying but I don’t know if it’s fair to fault the buyer. Sure, it’s ignorant, but the average person there doesn’t understand that closed eyes in the daytime means a serious issue is going on. These big stores will always have buyers who don’t go on these forums and who will take the chain pet store for a trusted source of info. They think they are doing right because those kits are supposedly made for these animals. The only way to stop that is to legislate against it or to find a way to convince the kit producers to stop doing what they’re doing because it harms the animals. Maybe a PETA complaint?

I’m sure if the right products were obvious (like a box that literally says “Chameleon Kit” on it), people would be buying them instead. It’s on us to complain enough to these retailers to get something to happen. When they bring these poor things home and they die quickly, some of those buyers are likely going back to those stores and asking what happened or demanding their money back. A fraction of us deciding to let those animals die doesn’t solve this problem either. It seems obvious to say that if you don’t buy it, they won’t supply it, but there’s almost no control at this level when it’s the incorrect products and information that are actually killing them.

 

[Beman]

If no one is buying them, the retailer won’t keep them in stock.

However we all know how that goes….

The chameleon grows and grows until they’re no longer an adorable baby that’s worthy of an impulse purchase at full price.

Now they’re a full sized adult, especially veiled chameleons which can be mature at 6 months. The retailer has to mark down the price of the animal significantly.

And what happens? You get someone buying a chameleon for a rock bottom price of $40.00 along with a $150.00 chameleon kit and some crickets. The kind of person who would buy a chameleon for $40.00 and not $85.00 is the kind of person who doesn’t have the finances to properly care for a chameleon.

The already immunocompromised chameleon quickly gets sick, and dies due to lack of proper husbandry.

Then the purchaser gets on the forums to talk about what went wrong.

Then that person buys another chameleon from a reputable breeder.

We can’t say someone oh well someone is going to buy whether or not I do. We can’t say our purchase have no impact on corporate greed. When know better so we have to be better.

I honestly feel like this is a persons choice to do or not. I have bought 2 now from big box stores. Beman is over 5 years old and has been amazing.

For a newbie getting into the hobby is it the best choice, not always. And for the reasons you say above.

I also have talked to 3 different managers of big box stores. 2 from Petco and 1 from Petsmart. Both said it literally does not matter if an animal does not get purchased they do not do the ordering. They are sent what corporate feels will sell or what is trending. They do not have control of what they actually get.

This is a controversial subject in this hobby. But I do not feel that making someone feel bad that understands the needs of the chameleon is worth it. If the OP wants to purchase, save, rescue, (whatever word you want to use) this chameleon then that is their choice and they know the risks involved. Being a support system and giving positive husbandry feedback is what this forum is about.

And I also want to note... The OP was not asking if they should do it they wanted to know if anyone knew what species of Jackson cham it was.

So to not further derail what the purpose of this thread was I am going to bow out of any further conversation on should they or should they not get the cham so the thread can go back to what the OP was asking about.

 

[Andrew1283]

I totally get what you’re saying but I don’t know if it’s fair to fault the buyer. Sure, it’s ignorant, but the average person there doesn’t understand that closed eyes in the daytime means a serious issue is going on. These big stores will always have buyers who don’t go on these forums and who will take the chain pet store for a trusted source of info. They think they are doing right because those kits are supposedly made for these animals. The only way to stop that is to legislate against it or to find a way to convince the kit producers to stop doing what they’re doing because it harms the animals. Maybe a PETA complaint?

I’m sure if the right products were obvious (like a box that literally says “Chameleon Kit” on it), people would be buying them instead. It’s on us to complain enough to these retailers to get something to happen. When they bring these poor things home and they die quickly, some of those buyers are likely going back to those stores and asking what happened or demanding their money back. A fraction of us deciding to let those animals die doesn’t solve this problem either. It seems obvious to say that if you don’t buy it, they won’t supply it, but there’s almost no control at this level when it’s the incorrect products and information that are actually killing them.

I’m not so much for punishing the big box stores by failing to purchase the chameleon . That’s crazy to think $45.00 is going to have any impact on the behavior of a multi billion dollar industry. However, giving your business to a small and responsible breeder or reptile store absolutely has an impact. Give your money to the people who are doing it right.

 

[MissSkittles]

This is always a dilemma - to possibly promote that chameleons are selling well and the store ordering more as a result or saving a life that otherwise has almost no chance. I will always look to the individual life and do what I can to save it or make it more than just a upc code and a much loved addition to my critter family. I would however point out to the store that the animal appears sickly and request a discount. The chain stores don’t really make money off the animals, but more off the stuff they sell people to care and house it. This is why I try really hard not to have to buy anything at them, but sometimes it’s unavoidable.
It is always ideal to speak with your wallet and purchase your animals from reputable breeders. I’m this case, I’m not really sure how many Jackson’s breeders there are. I do know that the super shady places sell them but I’d buy from the worst chain store before I bought from them.
This is a topic that has been brought up many many times and until things change, will remain a recurring topic. I say if someone chooses to ‘save’ an otherwise doomed animal life from a chain pet store, it Is their choice and there should be no shame to it. Stella came from Petco as did my bearded dragon - both looked/acted poorly. I have zero regrets that I gave them a chance at a good life and continue to enjoy having these beautiful animals.

 

[Andrew1283]

This is always a dilemma - to possibly promote that chameleons are selling well and the store ordering more as a result or saving a life that otherwise has almost no chance. I will always look to the individual life and do what I can to save it or make it more than just a upc code and a much loved addition to my critter family. I would however point out to the store that the animal appears sickly and request a discount. The chain stores don’t really make money off the animals, but more off the stuff they sell people to care and house it. This is why I try really hard not to have to buy anything at them, but sometimes it’s unavoidable.
It is always ideal to speak with your wallet and purchase your animals from reputable breeders. I’m this case, I’m not really sure how many Jackson’s breeders there are. I do know that the super shady places sell them but I’d buy from the worst chain store before I bought from them.
This is a topic that has been brought up many many times and until things change, will remain a recurring topic. I say if someone chooses to ‘save’ an otherwise doomed animal life from a chain pet store, it Is their choice and there should be no shame to it. Stella came from Petco as did my bearded dragon - both looked/acted poorly. I have zero regrets that I gave them a chance at a good life and continue to enjoy having these beautiful animals.

My female veiled came from Petco and has tongue problems or tracking problems or both. Likely a vitamin deficiency during her critical development stage. It’s a sin to watch her struggle but she is an angel and a joy.

 

[finalflash]

WOW after reading all this i almost deleted this post as it has gone way off the rails... it was initially a somewhat lighthearted "wonder what sub species...."
This was never intended to be a soapbox against the chain stores.... Yes, there is for sure a risk in a 'rescue' type of purchase, and it could go well or very badly but chances are much better in the right environment...
But i disagree with the implication that only something from a 'breeder' is worth the effort and it is a sad commentary on the hobby and exotic husbandry in general if that is the overall sentiment ...
The question of survivability, quality of life and care is a part of exotic husbandry, and the core goal is to do our best to provide these animals the best possible existence whether it be 4 months or 4 years...
Sadly, now i have soapboxed....Its sad that something so innocent as a what subspecies hit some serious hot buttons and went all sideways....

 

[stickenstein]

I was just trying to make a case for why you should be able to take him home if you want to, sorry if it came off as anything else… I rescued a near dead veiled and he’s doing pretty well now, my clients are obsessed with him since they’ve seen the progress

 

[finalflash]

I was just trying to make a case for why you should be able to take him home if you want to, sorry if it came off as anything else… I rescued a near dead veiled and he’s doing pretty well now, my clients are obsessed with him

no worries my own soapbox rant was not directed at anyone just venting i guess

 

[MissSkittles]

Sorry @finalflash but this has been and always will be a hot button topic. For all the ranting responses, you still haven’t gotten an answer as to what subspecies this is. @Sonny13 Do you know what type of Jackson’s this is?

 

[finalflash]

Sorry @finalflash but this has been and always will be a hot button topic. For all the ranting responses, you still haven’t gotten an answer as to what subspecies this is. @Sonny13 Do you know what type of Jackson’s this is?

lol yea i see that it is a BIG pain point topic ...duly noted!

 

[Sonny13]

Poor guy, sitting with his eyes closed
The poor care is probably a result of his smaller horns, but with some good care this will be corrected. Or he’s still young.
At first I thought a Xanth, but the yellow striping on his sides makes belief it’s a Machakos Hill. Some Xanth’s do have as well some yellow stripes, but this one has it pretty pronounced. Therefore first bet Machakos Hill, second Xanth. And if you got a spare enclosure, go for him. I’ve been there and this guy deserves a chance. The circle you’re not gonna break with leaving him to his faith. They’ll just put another in, this is collateral and calculated damage. Trying to change their husbandry and products is a better way, and in long term more profitable for them. They can sell more products. I did it with a local large pet store and now they offer complete packages with all right (Arcadia) stuff for chameleons. They even put their chameleon in an enclosure with correct uvb, life plants and a misting system. Win-win situation

 

[Andrew1283]

The next time I go on a rant on a soap box please feel free to respond with the name of whatever digital vegetable you are throwing at me. If I see TOMATO or HEAD OF LETTUCE I’ll know what you mean! Please no onions or radishes. They really hurt.

 

[finalflash]

The next time I go on a rant on a soap box please feel free to respond with the name of whatever digital vegetable you are throwing at me. If I see TOMATO or HEAD OF LETTUCE I’ll know what you mean! Please no onions or radishes. They really hurt.

now that is really funny...

 

[MissSkittles]

Thank you @Sonny13
@Andrew1283 We all get it and have done our own share of ranting at one time or another…or will. We all are just very passionate about chameleons and all share the same goal of wanting a world that treats them with the love and respect that they are deserving of.

 

[elizaann2]

I'm going to jump in here and say that all of you have big wonderful hearts and chameleons are amazing creatures.

I have very little experience with Jackson's, but my uneducated guess would be a a Machako's Hills. And I would also guess that he is still fairly young. I'll share a photo of my Xanth for reference, who will be 7 months on September 16th. Size wise they look roughly around the same age to me, I also I feel like they look drastically different from each other.

And if you do get him, please share your journey. I would love to see how things go with this little guy.