Male Veiled Chameleon Not Using Back Feet

[inlinefourpower]

My 10 month old male veiled chameleon *may* be having some health problems. He's not using his back feet much, nearly not at all.

First the health sheet:
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male Veiled Chameleon, approximately 10 months old.
Handling - Probably just about ever other day, he's never seemed to mind.
Feeding - Typically a mixed diet of african hornworms and crickets. He'll eat one large hornworm the not eat the next day or eat somewhere between 3 and 8 crickets a day. Compared to other veiled chameleons he doesn't seem to eat a lot...
Supplements - For the last month I've been exclusively coating his crickets in Rep-Cal Phosophorus Free Calcium with Vitamin D. Usually I have some Calcium with Phosphorus that he gets every once in a while. I also have a container of herptivite that I dust crickets with monthly.
Watering - Automatic misting system. He's had this one for months so even though I don't see him drink I know he must or he'd be looooong dead. There are plenty of leaves and such in his cage for water to pool on.
Fecal Description - Normally perfectly textbook. Recently he had some yellow urates, some areas maybe even a rust type color. At the time I found it only mildly concerning, that was probably two weeks ago.
History - No health issues besides a probably burn on the back of his arm and a toenail he ripped out climbing on his screen. It was a back toenail so *maybe* relevant. Normally very active and really a great chameleon.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - 2x2x4 exoterra screen cage
Lighting - Two heat bulbs, a 100W incandescent and 75 watt Halogen producing UVA. Most of the summer I'd only been running the 100W one, it seemed to be doing fine. One UV bulb, I can't remember what brand. It's 26 watt for tropical chameleons. He used to spend a LOT of time getting really close to his UV bulb (hanging from his ceiling and whatnot) so I gave him a second UV bulb (an old 13 watt that had only been used for a few months). He's been in the area less lately even though the 13 watt has been off.
Temperature - I have a temperature gun but to be honest I haven't been able to get a good temperature reading since about may when I upgraded him to his screen cage. Judging by his coloration and behavior (green, explores a lot, hangs out by his heat bulb probably half the time) I think he's fine.
Humidity - I don't have a trustworthy hygrometer. He gets misted every 2 hours during the daylight hours. His sheds do last a while so I'm inclined to believe his humidity is low.
Placement - Bedroom in a corner. His cage is on the floor, but he gets pretty high off the ground when he's near the top.
Plants - He has an umbrella plant in the bottom half of his cage.
Location - Southeast Michigan

I found an old thread but was hoping for a better outcome than this chameleon who died:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/veild-not-using-her-back-feet-95642/index2.html

So, a description of what's got me all worked up right now:
Probably a little under a week ago my chameleon started shedding. He normally takes a little while to shed completely with a day or two where he really explodes. Today and yesterday he had a big skin flap coming off the sole of his back foot. I noticed he wasn't really using his back foot and that it was closed so I started to think he was grabbing onto his skin flap and thinking he had something to hold onto. So, today I took him out and *very* carefully helped him get his foot free. I know to leave their skin alone around their toenails to avoid ripping them out and hurting them so I was very careful. I put him back afterwards and kind of expected things to go back to normal.

They haven't quite gone back yet, though. He still climbs around primarily by his front arms and tail and leaves his arms dangling. Before I've seen him in positions where one arm casually dangles but I've never seen him with two dangling legs so consistently. Now as he sleeps his back legs are grabbed onto nothing and he's just hanging from his vine by his front feet. They're closed but not terribly tightly. If I take him out he can still use them and walk, but for some reason in his cage he doesn't.

I looked at them (at first I was afraid maybe his foot he lost the toenail from was infected or something) but I don't see any swelling.

Does anyone have any advice? The nearest reptile vet I saw listed on here is more than an hour's drive away and I don't want to force him to endure a stressful trip if there's no problem!

Also, I can post pictures if it'd be helpful. Not sure if this is one of those cases.

 

[camimom]

Hi.

Can you post some pics?

From your lighting, and slightly off supplementing schedule, it could be MBD.

But we need pics to confirm.

You haven't been using a UVB bulb at all. so that can lead to issues as well.

 

[Lovereps]

Very likely from the supplement schedule and perhaps temps, too

As Camimom said, pics would be great.


Unless you're confused on your calcium supplements, these 2 things are problems :
Calcium with Phosphorus
and
"For the last month I've been exclusively coating his crickets in Rep-Cal Phosophorus Free Calcium with Vitamin D"

Calcium without Phosphorus is the one to use daily.
The reason that it's used is to compensate for feeders who have too much phosphorus compared to their calcium content---which applies to most feeders on the market.

Your cham's problem may very well be rooted in your recent month of daily use of calcium with vitamin D.
Too much vitamin D causes very serious health problems and using it every day is way too often.
Normally, D3 is used 2x a month with Veileds and Panthers and only 1x a month for Jackson's and other montane chams.

I would immediately stop the Calcium with D3 and get rid of the Calcium with Phosphorus.
I would not give him any D3 for a month or so.
If he goes outside, then he doesn't need any D3 supplement.

A multivitamin supplement is also used 2x a month (1x a month for Jackson's and other montanes) to ensure that no vitamin deficiencies occur.
1x a month is generally 1/2 of what's needed for Veiled and Panther chams.

Most chamkeepers use this supplement because most feeders are not fed a nutritious enough diet to provide all of the vitamins and minerals that chameleons need.

Again, too much multivitamin and too much D3 are as bad as too little.

The rest of his care might be good or might not, since you have no idea what temperatures his basking and ambient temperatures are.
Chameleons and other "cold-blooded" creatures require very specific temperatures to be able to absorb nutrients from their diets.

There's just no way around it--they need what they need.

 

[inlinefourpower]

Thanks for the replies! I should clarify a few things, first I slipped up on my calcium descriptions. I was feeding calcium with d3 daily and calcium without d3 monthly. Both are phosphorus free. So, I was screwing up badly, but not quite as badly as we thought. I must've gotten my supplementation flipped at some point and not noticed. I'm obviously going to fix that immediately.

Also, he does have a uv bulb. It's a compact (I know, tubes are better and I'll get one soon!) But it is on 12 hours a day. He had a second one I used to use in addition to that one when he seemed way too obsessed with getting to the bulb.

He does get to go outside for a few hours probably twice a week.

I feel terrible about screwing up his d3, but I'm grateful for you helping me fix it, lovereps!

Here's a pic from a day before I started getting worried and two days before I posted here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u8o3wkdfk48c6ct/2014-09-01 16.16.56.jpg?dl=0
He doesn't have any of the bending in his limbs I would expect from mbd, but I know it can manifest in other ways.

I'll upload some new pictures shortly, I'm posting this from my phone because our power just went out! So annoying! My pictures from today are uploading, though.

Edit: Also, thanks again to you two for posting, I'm worried about my little buddy and it's so nice that you guys are willing to help

 

[kinyonga]

Can he move in and out of the UVB when he wants to? If not you've been giving him too much D3 from supplements and maybe too much exposure to UVB too.

 

[inlinefourpower]

Just an update and some more info.

Last night when he was sleeping he had three of his legs dangling and was lying on one of his vines. I was very worried and had nightmares all night about him! But today he seems to be using his back feet a little more. Still something is weird but he's grabbing onto things again.

Some pictures for evaluation:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1f0sqo2unx6dq96/2014-09-06 18.52.36.jpg?dl=0
This is his cage setup. It's kinda tough to see what's going on, but in the front half he has his two heat bulbs hanging a little above the cage and in the back half he has the UV bulbs. Both of them have vines hanging nearby that he can climb up when he wants to get closer to the light. He sometimes does hang out near his heat bulb but rarely near the UV bulb.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2x506xj9pajuou9/2014-09-06 18.53.02.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hwcyb2zg3gb5d7p/2014-09-06 22.08.08.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9t42pld2p2kxci8/2014-09-06 22.08.19.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rmd2p0ahz1y4m52/2014-09-06 22.13.52.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mrgqx60zec5g9i/2014-09-06 22.17.49.jpg?dl=0
Here's my little buddy, picture from last night

In all of those pictures he's never using all four limbs, one of the back ones is usually dangling. In some like the first he kind of has a closed paw resting on top of a branch. Others like the last one he has grabbed something with a back paw. I also tried to take a picture of him with his legs kinda spread out so you guys could see that for MBD checking reasons.Came out kinda blurry but I think it gets the point across.

This morning when I woke up he climbed over to his front screen (something I normally don't like him doing.) I was happy to see it, though, because if his feet weren't working it seems like a difficult place to climb.

Anyway, lemme know if these add any clues to the discussion.

 

[kinyonga]

Is he pooping? Do you have a substrate in the cage or soil in the plants that he could be eating?

 

[inlinefourpower]

There's some kind of reptile carpet down at the bottom but he shouldn't be able to eat any of that. The plant does have dirt but I buried it in a layer of medium sized rocks at he shouldn't be able to dig through.

The other thread did suggest that the vet thought impaction was to blame. When people talk about giving their chameleon a warm water shower do they just mean spraying him in his cage? Or can I put him in a container with some shallow water for a "bath" of sorts?

 

[kinyonga]

People usually mean in the shower. I have put a chameleon in a container of warm water and let it soak....but you have to watch it so it doesn't drown or take in too much water...of course. (They tend to float if the water is deep.)

 

[Lovereps]

If I saw my cham dangling his hind legs like in the first pic, I'd have been having cham nightmares, too.

Increasing hydration may help him regardless of the cause of the problem.

If it is from the excessive D3, then the extra hydration might help to clear it out of his system faster and certainly will not harm him.

If it's impaction, the extra water may help move things along.

You can also feed a little pureed pear baby food, bits of grapes or bits of prunes to act as a laxative.

When people shower their chams they do it like this;
Place a large plant in the tub, aim the shower head against the wall, and run the water so that only a fine mist reaches the chameleon. The water should be room temperature (not hot!). They may drink for up to 30 minutes. Make sure to supervise your chameleon at all times while using this method.taken from here https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/water/

 

[villanueva11]

I cant really help with the problem at hand-not using back legs- but I did want to try to help with not getting good temp & humidity readings because I do think thats kind of important. This is just what has work well for me-its just from walmart, about $12. Made by acurite. It has indoor/outdoor temp, humidity, a clock, a light up screen, and even a record of the daily hi's & low's. The outdoor part is this small probe at the end of a 6' cord. I have that part actually inside up where he basks so that I know exactly how hot that area is. The box itself hangs on the wall toward the bottom of his cage so I know the coolest point too. And I know mine has gotten really wet a couple times while cleaning his cage & still working great. The part inside is so small you really cant even tell its there so it doesn't bother him a bit. Its by far the best, least expensive & easiest to use that I've been able to find. Maybe something to look into. Good luck with finding out whats going on with him. I know its hard to have a sick animal especially when you don't know what the problem is or how to help them. You've come to the right place though.

 

[inlinefourpower]

I think I'll get one of those combined temperature and humidity probes from walmart next time I'm out. I got an Exoterra digital temperature probe and set it up in his basking area, it looks like where he hands out it peaks around 90 though it does get up to 102 if you go right up underneath the grate.

I gave him a warm water bath for probably 20 minutes. He didn't seem happy with me but when I put him back in his cage he turned the brightest green!

He seems to be using his back right foot a little, the back left still doesn't do a lot. There's still something going on. Tomorrow when I go out to town I'm going to get him some waxworms and wednesday he has some hornworms coming in. If he is impacted probably their juicier nature will help move things along, right?

Also, I've upped his watering schedule.

Thanks again for all the help and advice!

 

[Lovereps]

It could be an impaction putting pressure on the nerves , so in addition to warm water mistings, feed him a little pureed pear baby food, bits of grapes or bits of prunes to act as a laxative.

It can do the trick.
If he isn't improved in the next day or two, then he should go to a good cham knowledgeable vet.

 

[inlinefourpower]

That's true, now that the weekend is over I should definitely be looking in the vet direction. How do you get a chameleon to eat baby food or prunes?

EDIT: JUst caught him climbing a vine with both back feet grabbed onto it. He's still not using them as much as I'd like but he does seem to be improving.

 

[Lovereps]

Has he pooped at all since you've returned?
Has he eaten?

You could get him to gape and use a needleless syringe to drop some into his mouth.

 

[inlinefourpower]

An update:
I went to Cedar Creek in Williamson, MI (a recommended vet from these forums). I saw Dr. Beasley.

From the initial examination he couldn't tell a lot, just that he wasn't constipated or impacted. I wasn't able to find any new poop for a parasite test. At that point the vet suggested we do some blood panels. They were crazy expensive, but Carlos Danger is worth it!

So, first we did the serum chemistry thing. It came back with these results:
ALKP = 14
GGT = 30
AST = 256
AMYL = xxx
ALT = xxx
BUN/UREA < 2
GLU = 207
PHOS = 6.3
Ca = 9.6
ALB = 2.7
CHOL >499
URIC= 3.1
CK = 1381
CREA = .44
TBIL = .18
GLOB = 3.0
ALB/GLOB = .9

So, here's what I was told as best I can remember it. First of all, his cholesterol is crazy high. Second, it seems like he's having liver and pancreas problems. I think the reason he said this was due to his relatively high levels of phosphorus but I can't remember, I just have that part written down. Third, his calcium levels are okay, though his phosporus is a little high. So, maybe his calcium is actually insufficient and his body is breaking down bone to make things right. Next, hes a little anemic.

At that point we ran another blood chemistry test with these results:
HTC = 27
TS = 9.0
WBC = 6800
HETERO = 70
LYMPHS = 30

This was kind of to determine whether he had parasites or a kidney infection or anything. The results came back normal and it implied a dietary origin to his problems.

The doctor said that my problem could be that his cholesterol is so high that it's making his blood too thick and it's giving him kidney troubles. They said no more feeding him african hornworms and that I should stick to crickets strictly. Additionally I need to feed my crickets better. The orange cubes from fluker's aren't good enough. They gave me Oxbow Critical Care to mix with water and feed to the crickets. They say it should take 3-6 weeks for carlos to get better.

Almost forgot, they gave him a vitamin b injection, too. They said it should stimulate his appetite though today he hasn't eaten for me. The dogs were near when I tried to feed him, though, so he could have been scared.

I asked about other feeders like waxworms, superworms, silkworms, phoenix worms, dubia, etc. He didn't like any of them particularly.

With this info do you guys have any new input? Or maybe you guys see something from the blood chemistry readouts that stands out?

Thanks!

 

[Jeremy1998]

Veiled Chameleon not using back legs

My 2 week old male veiled chameleon is having trouble walking and climbing and doesn't seem to be using his back legs. I just got him 3 days ago and so far hes been looking very healthy. This morning i found him with his mouth open and shaking side to side. He was displaying bright colors and wasn't using his back legs. He was also falling off branches in his cage. i tried to give him some crickets but we didn't eat them. I misted his enclosure in case he was dehydrated. I've also got a heater in my room to bring up the overall temperature. Have I done something wrong?? Does anyone know what might be the problem? Thank you!

 

[Lovereps]

Jeremy1998, sorry that people have not seen your post. This is because it was added on as a reply to someone else's post.
2 weeks is extremely young for a chameleon and they are very fragile at that age--really more appropriate for an experienced chamkeeper. Of course some people will sell chams this young rather than taking any risks on raising them themselves.

From what you've described his condition sounds very serious.

Without any further information from you, all anyone could do is guess what is wrong--though I suspect too hot and dry conditions perhaps.
If he has not passed, then starting a new thread of your own with the questions copied and pasted from here https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/, then add all of your answers.

 

[Lovereps]

inlinefourpower, no one has replied because, other than the vets who are forum members, determining things from blood panel results is truly beyond our abilities.

Hopefully, your cham has been making a turnaround now that the daily D3 has been stopped.

Excessive D3 may have adversely affected his internal organ functions, as is known to happen and that is why his blood test results showed abnormalities--according to your vet.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here rooting for your cham to bounce back to good health.

I hope you'll update us on his condition.

 

[inlinefourpower]

Update on the chameleon, he's still hanging in there. I'm now raising my own crickets eating the vet recommended diet. He eats them, probably between 3 and 9 a day. It's been kind of up and down lately. For two days in a row a bit ago I found him real low in his cage hiding behind his umbrella plant. I kind of figured that was a bad sign. The last two days, though, he's been travelling all around his cage. He still definitely has problems with his back right leg and his back left isn't as graceful as it once was, that's for sure.

The real improvement, though, was at night when he sleeps. Typically he left his back legs dangling and had his tail grabbing onto something so he could sleep. The previous two nights to tonight he had his tail curled up all nice and happy looking.

Tonight he's back to his usual bad form... But he's still alive. And he still seems happy and he's still eating.

Is the fact that he's eating kind of a good sign that he's not in pain? He's not really any more hostile to me and eats kind of the same as ever so I'm inclined to believe that maybe this isn't as bad as I fear. But our other animals (dogs and birds) would eat like pigs no matter how sick they were.