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PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
Their are far many more Calumma I would guess about 100x more then in the US minimum.Thats one guy read the whole forum and get back to me.I know many breeders in Europe that are reputable and have legal animals.Go to the photo gallery on the front of the forum.I am not going to sit here and debate about what the Europeans do that is their business and they do it legally.If its legal nothing can be done about it.You seem to not want to see any Calumma species in the US or in other peoples hand.Their is less the 10% of natural forest in Madagascar left.If people don't start breeding them what do you think will happen?
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
http://www.bluchmeleons.se/
I am not going to sit and post websites that breed Calumma but here is one more
I am not going to sit and post websites that breed Calumma but here is one more
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Kent67
Retired Moderator
I think you're misunderstanding much of what I have said.
There are more parsonii in certain countries of Europe, though not because of greater breeding success than US breeders. It is because they still receive them from Madagascar.
Since I have to say it again: I read the whole forum, going back 3 years. There is one guy with pics of adult parsonii and adult nasutus.
You chose to debate me by saying this:
You must not look very hard or know much about what your saying.
Then you said some things that I asked for proof of, to which you linked to two websites that prove nothing other than these species are illegal in France and that one person in the Netherlands has produced a couple clutches of parsonii. Something that is not at all impossible if you start out with healthy, wild caught animals.
If you think that I don't want any Calumma sp. in the US, again you need to re-read all of my posts. You are not getting it. I have always believed that a sustainable quota for most of the Malagasy species would be beneficial to the native people as well as not harming wild populations. More land would be spared in order to keep the reptile populations stable if there was more incentive. What I don't want are smuggled animals in the US.
Finally, the idea that the chameleons are better off dieing here than Madagascar is old as well. Many, many very capable keepers tried reproducing many of these species back in the hey-day with very limited success. Are we now so far advanced in herpetoculture that the tide would dramatically change in favor of the breeders?
There are more parsonii in certain countries of Europe, though not because of greater breeding success than US breeders. It is because they still receive them from Madagascar.
Since I have to say it again: I read the whole forum, going back 3 years. There is one guy with pics of adult parsonii and adult nasutus.
You chose to debate me by saying this:
You must not look very hard or know much about what your saying.
Then you said some things that I asked for proof of, to which you linked to two websites that prove nothing other than these species are illegal in France and that one person in the Netherlands has produced a couple clutches of parsonii. Something that is not at all impossible if you start out with healthy, wild caught animals.
If you think that I don't want any Calumma sp. in the US, again you need to re-read all of my posts. You are not getting it. I have always believed that a sustainable quota for most of the Malagasy species would be beneficial to the native people as well as not harming wild populations. More land would be spared in order to keep the reptile populations stable if there was more incentive. What I don't want are smuggled animals in the US.
Finally, the idea that the chameleons are better off dieing here than Madagascar is old as well. Many, many very capable keepers tried reproducing many of these species back in the hey-day with very limited success. Are we now so far advanced in herpetoculture that the tide would dramatically change in favor of the breeders?
Kent67
Retired Moderator
Thanks for posting that website. That is a guy doing things right in my book.
A quote taken directly from his website:
"Most parsoniis comes to Europe and the States ilegaly from Madagascar and are probably farmbred or taken direct from the jungle. I have visited "farms" on madagascar and the coditions are horrible, Hundreds of baby parsoniis in small cages with dead chameleons on the floor, these traumatised lizards are then smuggeld in to Europe or the States with no prospect to survive long term. To buy this chameleons is often a waist of money . "
Thanks again for proving my points for me.
Another quote
"To get good lizards you need contacts "in the bussines" and parsoniis offerd on reptile communitys on the internet are often those who are no good. Parsoniis are not for everyone and even the most dedicated and expirienced breeders fail with them sometimes. "
Kinda sounds like the US, huh?
A quote taken directly from his website:
"Most parsoniis comes to Europe and the States ilegaly from Madagascar and are probably farmbred or taken direct from the jungle. I have visited "farms" on madagascar and the coditions are horrible, Hundreds of baby parsoniis in small cages with dead chameleons on the floor, these traumatised lizards are then smuggeld in to Europe or the States with no prospect to survive long term. To buy this chameleons is often a waist of money . "
Thanks again for proving my points for me.
Another quote
"To get good lizards you need contacts "in the bussines" and parsoniis offerd on reptile communitys on the internet are often those who are no good. Parsoniis are not for everyone and even the most dedicated and expirienced breeders fail with them sometimes. "
Kinda sounds like the US, huh?
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Kent67
Retired Moderator
Pepperquil edited the link to Bjorn's site thus making it not work. He has a beautiful collection of what appear to all be legitimate CB specimens although he does not seem to mention actually breeding them, as was stated. If anyone wants to see it:
http://www.bluechameleons.se/parsonii.htm
http://www.bluechameleons.se/parsonii.htm
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
Hairspray,
Sorry about the link when I posted it and clicked it it gave me a 404 error I tried to play with it.Here is a good website that has a lot of info on the importation of chams specifically from Madagascar:
http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/wildcaughthealth.html
and another with cb babies
http://www.reptilglobal.net/mas_datos.php?id_art=80&id_art2=sd0vM7lyJ31y5FlwyS8&mostcmp=5
I am not saying they don't come in illigally they do.But they ARE breeding Calumma in Europe and other countries.Anything of value will be smuggeled you can't stop it.CITES and FWC does its best to stop Illigal importation.Read the part on his website that says if we do not do something to breed them the species will surely become extinct
Sorry about the link when I posted it and clicked it it gave me a 404 error I tried to play with it.Here is a good website that has a lot of info on the importation of chams specifically from Madagascar:
http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/wildcaughthealth.html
and another with cb babies
http://www.reptilglobal.net/mas_datos.php?id_art=80&id_art2=sd0vM7lyJ31y5FlwyS8&mostcmp=5
I am not saying they don't come in illigally they do.But they ARE breeding Calumma in Europe and other countries.Anything of value will be smuggeled you can't stop it.CITES and FWC does its best to stop Illigal importation.Read the part on his website that says if we do not do something to breed them the species will surely become extinct
Kent67
Retired Moderator
Since this guy misinterprets everything I say I'm not going to bother responding to him anymore.
I'm not "trying" to stop anything. What I AM trying to do is get the rest of you who proclaim to have the animal's best interests at heart to consider how your actions affect the global trade of all endangered and protected species.
For the record, does anyone know of ANY reptile species that were saved from extinction through the efforts of captive breeding and now no longer exist in the wild? 18,000 Parsonii exported vs the 218 that were known to have merely HATCHED in captivity during the same time period would suggest the odds are heavily stacked against that working.
I'm not "trying" to stop anything. What I AM trying to do is get the rest of you who proclaim to have the animal's best interests at heart to consider how your actions affect the global trade of all endangered and protected species.
For the record, does anyone know of ANY reptile species that were saved from extinction through the efforts of captive breeding and now no longer exist in the wild? 18,000 Parsonii exported vs the 218 that were known to have merely HATCHED in captivity during the same time period would suggest the odds are heavily stacked against that working.
pohchunyee
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