Looking for a new Cham?

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Heika

New Member
A long time... like, over 10 years? Pretty sure that species is protected under CITES, and not allowed to be imported. Must be.. cough.. CB.

Heika
 

pohchunyee

Avid Member
only 4 species is allowed to be exported out of madagascar; carpet, panther, verrucose and oustalet (i think). Hopefully she is a Cb or else...:p dunno what will happen when the official found out about this species posted in the classified
 

Kent67

Retired Moderator
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Cuz everyone's still got colonies of those, producing babies all the time....yup :rolleyes:
 

Heika

New Member
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Cuz everyone's still got colonies of those, producing babies all the time....yup :rolleyes:

Ha.. :p I wonder sometimes how much the governing bodies watch these reptile sales sites.

There are some additional animals on the Madagascar list that can be legally exported in small quantities... some of the brookesia.

This is a great time to ask the more knowledgeable folks on the list about CITES in general. How does an animal like this, that is almost definitely not being bred in the US, end up on the market legally? What is the process with CITES when animals are shipped from other countries? What is the process with CITES for other countries? For those of us who care, is there any way to ensure that an available animal didn't just follow a circuitous route from Madagascar to the US, gaining legal paperwork along the way?

Heika
 

pohchunyee

Avid Member
It is really hard to track them down once they are in the States i assume. Once they get into the states, they will usually be split up and transport to other places secretly. They could claimed they are "CB" too...:D
 

Kent67

Retired Moderator
Ha.. :p I wonder sometimes how much the governing bodies watch these reptile sales sites.

There are some additional animals on the Madagascar list that can be legally exported in small quantities... some of the brookesia.

This is a great time to ask the more knowledgeable folks on the list about CITES in general. How does an animal like this, that is almost definitely not being bred in the US, end up on the market legally? What is the process with CITES when animals are shipped from other countries? What is the process with CITES for other countries? For those of us who care, is there any way to ensure that an available animal didn't just follow a circuitous route from Madagascar to the US, gaining legal paperwork along the way?

Heika


I've heard that USF&W officers do check that site frequently. I wouldn't be surprised if concerned people notified them as well. If he was selling it for $500 it might not raise any flags, but $3000....

I would not call this animal on the market legally, but others might. I think the price and the seller's own words point to that conclusion (the price, "really not needing" to be harrassed, not mentioning the source, and the Dr. Stahl parasite check. The latest I have heard is that smugglers are removing chameleons from Madagascar by speedboat. From there they are taken via circuitous route to countries where enforcement is not that good, ending up in places such as Germany where they end up being sold openly at expos. In Germany, the sellers apply for re-export permits from their local CITES management authority. I believe they must certify that they are captive born to be issued the permit, but obviously there's no way for the MA to verify it. It may have gained paperwork along the way, but to me, that still doesn't change it's "legal" status. Unless of course the animal in question is one that was confiscated out of the LA Reptile shipment a few years back and given to zoos, somehow making into the hands of this seller later.
 

pohchunyee

Avid Member
Erm........ I don't blame smuggler though. Supply and demand. The demand in Europe and USA for Exotic Chameleons are high. That is why everyone wanna piece of the cake. Earning quick money! Thus, endangering the species; especially those that are hard to find in the wild, fetches good money.
 

Kent67

Retired Moderator
Yeah, but to me, don't harm the wildlife. Smuggle guns or drugs, there's a bigger market for those anyway.
 

pohchunyee

Avid Member
Smuggling guns and drugs will get death sentence in most of the country around the world. Smuggling exotic pet however, if caught, is just fines and maybe jail. Yet, without smuggler, we won't get nice CB parson imported from Europe....LOL:D
 

Dankmeleon

New Member
the saddest part of the high demand is half of those people kill there chams with poor care....Look at the number of chams compared to the number of active members on various cham forums for instance
 

curtis

New Member
OK guys...I don't get involed in things like this but since your talking about me I feel I must. First off I'm not your everyday chameleon keeper. I have been working with chameleons for over 10 years and I think I know what I'm doing. Not to say I'm not always learning more everyday just like everone else who keeps chameleons. The chameleon at question has been in the country for almost a year and came in as cb, and I mite add who wouldnt get a fecal done with this kind of chameleon to make sure all is well? I didnt bring her in the coutry I just purchesed her, and being that she is here I have done what it takes to care for her. I have had so many e-mails about this chameleon with people wanting to buy her but still have found noone I feel with the experience to care for her, and if I don't...then I will just have to keep her. I also was hoping that with the add it may bring someone out who had a male and we could work together on breeding. As far as the money goes, that is what I paid for her and I don't feel I should have to take a loss on her. Look, I know more than anyone how inportant it is to protected our wild life, and maybe if someone knows of any zoos who would be willing to work with me on this please the let me know, but please dont thrash me for wanting to part with a chameleon I have no male for or for even having her. I love chameleons and I do my best to make them happy and heathly when they are in my care. Just say I didnt get her when she came in the country and someone else with little experience did, if by some chance she died and everyone heard about it then they would be thrashed on for killing her. I'm am glad that I have her and will not part with her untill I find someone who will take care of her as I do. One more thing....If she was $500.00 then everyone would have one, even the people that don't know how to care for them. I'm in a losing battle but I thought I would at least let everyone know how I feel.


Curtis
 

Kent67

Retired Moderator
Curtis, I am glad that you joined the conversation. If you're willing to continue there are a few things left rather cloudy. First off though, I completely understand your situation now, as it is. However, you did purchase this animal for a very high price, thus supporting the trade in protected wildlife. Since your advert did not list wc or cb as the source, it obviously leaves it wide open for debate. You said it came in as cb, but you didn't say anything about whether or not you actually believe that to be the case. I'm sure you're well aware that for her to be a legal cb animal raised in Europe or wherever, that she would have to be at minimum a 2nd or 3rd generation captive by now. Personally I seriously doubt that to be the case. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Lastly, do you happen to know whether or not she was legally brought into this country? It would be easy enough to buy a few of these in Hamburg and conceal them for a brief 9 hour flight back to the states....
 

curtis

New Member
I'll wait untill later tonight to post my responce as I want everyone that has anything to say to post first so we don't keep going back and forth.

Curtis
 

PEPPERQUILL1

New Member
Ha.. :p I wonder sometimes how much the governing bodies watch these reptile sales sites.

There are some additional animals on the Madagascar list that can be legally exported in small quantities... some of the brookesia.

This is a great time to ask the more knowledgeable folks on the list about CITES in general. How does an animal like this, that is almost definitely not being bred in the US, end up on the market legally? What is the process with CITES when animals are shipped from other countries? What is the process with CITES for other countries? For those of us who care, is there any way to ensure that an available animal didn't just follow a circuitous route from Madagascar to the US, gaining legal paperwork along the way?

Heika

CITES quotas only pertain to WC animals being exported unless otherwise noted.Almost any animals can be exported with f1 permits.CITES issues permits it is the recieving countries duty to see if the permits are good and which if the animals in the shipment have paperwork.Alot of Calumma are bred in Europe but aren't exported to the US because Europeans will pay more then we will for the animals so their is no reason to export them.
 
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PEPPERQUILL1

New Member
The latest I have heard is that smugglers are removing chameleons from Madagascar by speedboat. From there they are taken via circuitous route to countries where enforcement is not that good, ending up in places such as Germany where they end up being sold openly at expos. In Germany, the sellers apply for re-export permits from their local CITES management authority. I believe they must certify that they are captive born to be issued the permit, but obviously there's no way for the MA to verify it. It may have gained paperwork along the way, but to me, that still doesn't change it's "legal" status. Unless of course the animal in question is one that was confiscated out of the LA Reptile shipment a few years back and given to zoos, somehow making into the hands of this seller later.

Maybe a while ago but their are large colonies of many different species being bred outside of the US.The animals, parents as well as the offspring being exported must have paperwork and the parents must be proven to be f1
European countries are very strict about sales and will not tolerate illigal sales.
 

PEPPERQUILL1

New Member
Smuggling guns and drugs will get death sentence in most of the country around the world. Smuggling exotic pet however, if caught, is just fines and maybe jail. Yet, without smuggler, we won't get nice CB parson imported from Europe....LOL:D

Actually not most countries look the other way at drug and gun smuggeling as it is a part of the countries income.Are you suggesting that all the Parsonii are illigal?I doubt our FWC officers would be stupid enough to let them thru anyway.
 

Crazy Chams

New Member
I've heard that USF&W officers do check that site frequently. I wouldn't be surprised if concerned people notified them as well. If he was selling it for $500 it might not raise any flags, but $3000....

Thank you some one took the words right out of my mouth. You see if its was being sold for $500 like stated above and not $3000 everyone would have one and you people wouldnt being complaining. The only reson you people are on here talking about USFW is because you cant afford one. Leave this guy alone and let him sell what he wants to sell. If its not CB oh well not anybodies problem but his own. And I should of known it was Heika that was behind all this. Take it away HOLLAND
 

Brad Ramsey

Retired Moderator
Heika is not behind all this.
She participated in this discussion, shared her opinions and views and that is all.
Sort of what forums are for.
Curtis has begun to give some details and seems willing to participate as well.
I get the feeling he would rather not have to explain himself....and honestly he doesn't have to, but he knew putting this animal up for sale would raise an eyebrow or two and so you take the bad with the good.
In the end it's a fascinating topic and starts to have less and less to do with one specific animal.
Everyone re-tract your claws (if they're out....this doesn't seem all that fierce) and learn something from the thread.
Personally, I think at any price this animal may be a hard sell...given Curtis' requirements (which I have a great amount of respect for screening potential buyers) and the strong possibility that no one out there has a male.
Oh, and please raise your hand if you haven't bent some of these regulations:)

-Brad
 
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