local wild chameleons
- Thread starter mardithepanther
- Start date
mardithepanther
New Member
i went last weekend... woops. i went during the day and i forgot its better during the night though. i dont have anything on sunday...
PrettyInInk87
New Member
I need to know way ahead of time so that I have a chance to save up some gas money and find a babysitter. 
mardithepanther
New Member
I need to know way ahead of time so that I have a chance to save up some gas money and find a babysitter.
you cant start a date then cuz Im open whenever usually. just not saturdays. Melric sent me a message said hes got a plan. ask him
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Yeah, it happens occasionally. You know, like earlier in this thread when I posted or one of the other 50 posts I've made in the last month.
Don't know, don't care. They don't belong there and should not be protected from being collected or extirpated.
Nope, I'm not, but even if I was, I wouldn't argue they should be protected, just like as a chameleon enthusiast, I don't argue introduced chameleon populations should be protected.
Fine, but Southern California, Florida and Hawaii are not the wild for these species.
Why? Because I like chameleons? That doesn't change the fact that they and other introduced species do not belong where they have been introduced and I see no problem with collection of specimens from those introduced populations.
Alright lets switch it up then...lets say there's a colony of Parsonii on So. Cal??!! Lets go get them!!! Let go clear them out!! How would you feel about the subject then???
I know I'd have a nice colony of SoCal WC parsonii in my house if there were!
Cheers,
Chris
mardithepanther
New Member
what about a local bug or something like the stick bug that live around here the grasshopper. i wont be able to collect free ones for my cham. and some one posted a pic of their cham that ate a humming bird :/
Lloyd Heilbrunn
Member
Actually, removing an exotic, is a good thing ecologically.
And WCs without the stress of holding for shipping, import, wholesale, and retail are usually very healthy.
Edit: And it looks like Jarod, Chris, and Chad beat me to this.....
Josh Holbrook
New Member
Where exactly are there chameleons in Vero Beach?
Lloyd Heilbrunn
Member
PrettyInInk87
New Member
CjReptiles
New Member
It is our duty to remove every exotic species from the wild that we encounter.. Would you like us to pop them in the freezer?
Chris Jury
New Member
::shakes head::
Most people on the street do not know or care that other people out there keep chameleons, or all sorts of other exotic animals, absolutely including politicians. This changes quickly when those animals find their way into the wild, and especially if they are actually able to establish reproductive populations. Then people begin to know, and care, and often begin to think (reasonably, I might add) that species like that should be banned, to prevent further introductions.
Most introduced species in most places don't become established, even if they are accidentally released. For example, corn, or wheat, or chameleons are not taking over upstate New York, even though they are present there. Sometimes, however, introduced species do become established, do spread, and do cause serious ecological and economic harm. The examples are extremely numerous, especially here in Hawaii.
Jackson's chameleons here were intentionally released into the environment, but with the intention of recapturing them after they recovered from importation stress. Well, that didn't work so well, and within a few years they had established a substantial population. They haven't devestated the ecosystem the way that some invasives do in some places, but there's no question they compete with native birds for insect prey, at the very least.
Hawaii allowed chameleon exports to the mainland for a time, but shut the operation down after it became clear that people were intentionally spreading the animals around Oahu, Maui, and the Big Island, so as to establish new populations for collection purposes. Collectors also made nuisanses of themselves, from what I hear. By this time the animals were so well established, erradication was simply infeasible. Now you can maintain pet Jackson's collected locally, but you cannot transport them between islands (they are present on Oahu, Maui, and the Big Island, but not on Kauai yet, and Kahoolawe, Lanai and Niihau are probably far too dry for them). You can hand carry up to four animals out of the state one time, but shipping them or taking more than four is highly illegal (though some illegal animals probably do make it out). While I love them, find them a joy, and think myself extremely fortunate to live in their midst, I sincerely wish that neither they nor any other non-native species would have been introduced to the islands. Native Hawaiian flora and fauna are spectacular, and much of it has been driven extinct or to ecological extinction by introduced species.
Veiled chamelons were brought to Maui a few years ago, as illegal animals, and established a small population. Happily, this introduction was caught fairly early, and the population looks to be erradicated, or close to it. There's a small but established population of Giant Day Geckos in upper Manoa valley. Gold dust day geckos are established in many places around Oahu (there's a group that lives a few houses down from me, and a few more populations I've seen within about a mile radius of my place). These species, while established, are considered invasive and cannot be kept as pets, under penalty of substantial fines, and possible jail time.
Exotic species should not be released, should not be allowed to become established, and established populations, if possible, should be removed. This goes as much for chameleons as anything else. Firstly, introduced species can and do cause devestating harm in many cases, and there's usually no way to know if they will until they are so well established that control is infeasible. Second, I can think of no better way possible to get the exotic pet trade (including the chameleon trade) shut down than for these species to establish feral populations. There was little effort and zero traction most places in banning exotic pythons and other species until they started showing up in the wild. Once that ball got rolling, it was hard to stop, and frankly, perhaps those species really shouldn't be kept by most people in environments where they can survive and breed.
If you want to see this hobby made illegal then let those feral populations spread, and perhaps even start new ones. If you want this hobby to remain legal, do everything you can to ensure that chameleons (and other exotics) stay in captivity, and out of ecosystems where they are not native.
cj
Most people on the street do not know or care that other people out there keep chameleons, or all sorts of other exotic animals, absolutely including politicians. This changes quickly when those animals find their way into the wild, and especially if they are actually able to establish reproductive populations. Then people begin to know, and care, and often begin to think (reasonably, I might add) that species like that should be banned, to prevent further introductions.
Most introduced species in most places don't become established, even if they are accidentally released. For example, corn, or wheat, or chameleons are not taking over upstate New York, even though they are present there. Sometimes, however, introduced species do become established, do spread, and do cause serious ecological and economic harm. The examples are extremely numerous, especially here in Hawaii.
Jackson's chameleons here were intentionally released into the environment, but with the intention of recapturing them after they recovered from importation stress. Well, that didn't work so well, and within a few years they had established a substantial population. They haven't devestated the ecosystem the way that some invasives do in some places, but there's no question they compete with native birds for insect prey, at the very least.
Hawaii allowed chameleon exports to the mainland for a time, but shut the operation down after it became clear that people were intentionally spreading the animals around Oahu, Maui, and the Big Island, so as to establish new populations for collection purposes. Collectors also made nuisanses of themselves, from what I hear. By this time the animals were so well established, erradication was simply infeasible. Now you can maintain pet Jackson's collected locally, but you cannot transport them between islands (they are present on Oahu, Maui, and the Big Island, but not on Kauai yet, and Kahoolawe, Lanai and Niihau are probably far too dry for them). You can hand carry up to four animals out of the state one time, but shipping them or taking more than four is highly illegal (though some illegal animals probably do make it out). While I love them, find them a joy, and think myself extremely fortunate to live in their midst, I sincerely wish that neither they nor any other non-native species would have been introduced to the islands. Native Hawaiian flora and fauna are spectacular, and much of it has been driven extinct or to ecological extinction by introduced species.
Veiled chamelons were brought to Maui a few years ago, as illegal animals, and established a small population. Happily, this introduction was caught fairly early, and the population looks to be erradicated, or close to it. There's a small but established population of Giant Day Geckos in upper Manoa valley. Gold dust day geckos are established in many places around Oahu (there's a group that lives a few houses down from me, and a few more populations I've seen within about a mile radius of my place). These species, while established, are considered invasive and cannot be kept as pets, under penalty of substantial fines, and possible jail time.
Exotic species should not be released, should not be allowed to become established, and established populations, if possible, should be removed. This goes as much for chameleons as anything else. Firstly, introduced species can and do cause devestating harm in many cases, and there's usually no way to know if they will until they are so well established that control is infeasible. Second, I can think of no better way possible to get the exotic pet trade (including the chameleon trade) shut down than for these species to establish feral populations. There was little effort and zero traction most places in banning exotic pythons and other species until they started showing up in the wild. Once that ball got rolling, it was hard to stop, and frankly, perhaps those species really shouldn't be kept by most people in environments where they can survive and breed.
If you want to see this hobby made illegal then let those feral populations spread, and perhaps even start new ones. If you want this hobby to remain legal, do everything you can to ensure that chameleons (and other exotics) stay in captivity, and out of ecosystems where they are not native.
cj
facelesdoll
New Member
yup that was said perfectly
Please explain, why should I care about chameleons being an invasive species? What about the invasive race that practically exterminated Native Americans? What about the fact that non-native plants are actually a much bigger threat than chameleons? How do you intend to stop something that is impossible to stop? And why should anyone waste their money and time, on a lizard hunt, when we are a much bigger threat to the ecosystem than the chameleons could ever be?
Tell me, why should I care about chameleons, when the government is not even organized enough to regulate the amount of antibiotics and drugs that are feed to the hamburgers that we eat? When we have so many rivers flowing with high toxicity levels? And you are actually concerned about chameleons because chameleons are -by definition- an invasive species?
Well I fully disagree with your condescending notion, I think it is absurd. If you knew how many plants are non-native invasive species, and how much the invasive plants have in turn affected native animals, you wouldn't be at all concerned about chameleons. You talk a good deal about ignorance: tell me smart man, what do you intend to do about it? Whom would pay for it? Whom would benefit from it?
My opinion is, for each chameleon that you catch, there is a corporation that is completely unregulated, throwing toxic into the water, feeding animals whom naturally eat grass with a combo of corn and antibiotics to counter the fact that the animal gets sick from eating something that it should not be eating, etc, etc. If you think you would be doing the world a favor by fighting against the great aggressor that the chameleon is, then perhaps you already are in that pit of ignorance that you seem to despise.
Human beings do not even know if they are 100% native or if there is an alien element in the mix, yet people like you are arrogant enough to believe that they actually do have a say in what is native and what isn't: I find your argument idiotic, not because I think it's conceptually wrong, but because it's disconnected from reality and would be detrimental if effectuated under the given circumstances.
If you had any real conviction, you would not own any chameleons nor any other non-native invasive species. If you cared so much about the native ecosystem, then a little hobby is a small price to pay, wouldn't you think? Yet you are incapable of giving up a small luxury in exchange for the well being of the ecosystem.
If invasive species were all illegal for every person, then fair enough, but to be the legal owner of an exotic pet and at the same time complain about an inevitable outcome, is, as far as I'm concerned, comparable to eating meat and simultaneously arguing that meat is murder: completely devoid of any real conviction.
I have no real problem with the argument from a conceptual point of view, if certain animals are a considerable threat to the ecosystem of a nation, then make them illegal for all people, and that should greatly minimize the threat; but when a chameleon owner is the one whom is complaining, I find it offensive and condescending.
Though of course, it doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, illegal or not, non-native animals will be introduced one way or the other, it is inevitable, it is what happens when you throw human beings into the mix, and I just fail to see why I should be concerned about chameleons in the US, I don't see it as a reason to be concerned, I see it as the inevitable outcome of globalization.
I am by no means an expert on chameleons, but when one chameleon can lay 30 eggs, and you have a very small minority of people who know how to take good care of chameleons, and you only have a very small minority of activists whom are actually willing to do something about it, and chameleons sell for the price they sell, then I see that as a lost cause, we have a lot of more imminent problems and I fail to see how a small group of people can prevent the growth of a lizard that can lay about 30 eggs and can hide itself as effectively as a chameleon can; ideally, you are right; realistically, I think you are being a condescending hipster.
Eltortu
Established Member
That's where we are going this Summer. I got my lasso and blowgun ready for the hunt! Hayo!!
Eltortu
Established Member
Hmmm...good catch...
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