light

arsnake

New Member
we need for one cage :
uvb 5 % or 12% right?
uva 30% right?
lumens 25000/30000 right?
hot shade must be the dominant shade ,for giveat light the correct color ,similar at sun color light, right'?

there are other factor we must know?
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
10-50µW/cm² gradient of uvb in the cage. So 2/3 the cage should be at least 10µW/cm², top of cage should be around 50µW/cm², and bottom 1/3 of cage should be below 10µW/cm² so the cham can regulate.

That should eliminate all your calculations of lumens, 6-12% questions etc.
 

Chameleopatrick

New Member
10-50µW/cm² gradient of uvb in the cage. So 2/3 the cage should be at least 10µW/cm², top of cage should be around 50µW/cm², and bottom 1/3 of cage should be below 10µW/cm² so the cham can regulate.

That should eliminate all your calculations of lumens, 6-12% questions etc.
Where are you getting your information? You think a basking area should be 50 micro watts? In natural light the basking uvb numbers are closer to 250-300 in direct basking light. How does this eliminate calculations on lumens? I don't see anything in your answer that even remotely discusses lumens. Nor do I see anything about your justifying UVB percentages.

I don't even see the most important factor being discussed. The type of chameleon.

This actually discusses the variables to make an informed decision. Good luck arsnake.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/definitive-lighting-thread-everything-you-really-need-know-80869/
 

arsnake

New Member
but uvb and lumens aren't the same thing ...
you say we need :

50microw x 1 cm2
so if we have a cage:40x80x100h we must have:

50microw x 3200cm2 = 160000 microw in the last 33 cm of cage
15microw x 3200cm2= 48000 microw in the middle of the cage
5 microw x 3200cm2= 16000 microw in the first 33 cm of cage
so we have 0,16w for the basking spot, but with 0,16 watt it's impossible...
take 25000/30000 lumens for light intensity ,and 5/12% uvb and 30%uva
how your place equations can descrive all this important factor ? uva uvb ,lumens(light intensity) or quantity of light send , light's color and temperature ( kelvin)...
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Where are you getting your information? You think a basking area should be 50 micro watts? In natural light the basking uvb numbers are closer to 250-300 in direct basking light. How does this eliminate calculations on lumens? I don't see anything in your answer that even remotely discusses lumens. Nor do I see anything about your justifying UVB percentages.

I don't even see the most important factor being discussed. The type of chameleon.

This actually discusses the variables to make an informed decision. Good luck arsnake.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/definitive-lighting-thread-everything-you-really-need-know-80869/

UM....


Chams do just fine with a reptisun 5.0, threw screen, in a 4ft tall cage. In that setup they are about 30uw of uv at 12" and about 10uw at 2ft.

That being said you can go all out and get an arcadia 6% with refector and no screen and get 150uw at 15"(which is about 10x more uv than you could even buy 10 years ago). Using forum logic, that would be like a 50.0 and roast the cham. it doesnt...


I just gave the mins based on proven setups over the last 20 years and are forum approved. Im going to shut up now since Giving the OP uvb radiation levels to shoot for instead of "6% 10.0" etc stirred up a hornets nest. Im responding to a generic post that didnt even give cage size.

I went with my gut and assumed a panther or vieled or even jacksons in a screen cage that is taller than it is wide.



Back to the OPs last post. The micro watt levels are UVB levels to shoot for , not total light output. Since you can only choose from about 4 bulbs (t5ho 6% or 12%, or T8 5.0 or 10.0) that limits the field alot.


sniff around this site, the 6%t8 is about the same as the reptisun 5.0. same with the 12% is about the same as the reptisun 10.0

http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/fluorescent-lamps/t8-d3-forest/
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/example/
 
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arsnake

New Member
1)My recommendation for the best indoor chameleon and plant lighting is a six lamp T5HO light fixture with 5 plusrite 5000k 4900 lumen output bulbs and one Arcadia 12% bulb. in conjunction with one 100 watt power sun MVL placed appropriately.


If you use a standard bulb fixture the Longstar 40 watt 5000K CFL bulbs work very well, and have tremendous output compared to 23 or 26 watt bulbs for plant growing and lighting up your enclosure.

2)I don't even see the most important factor being discussed. The type of chameleon.



but 5 x4900 lumens at 5000kelvin it's sufficient with uvb arcadia 12% and extra light for hotspot ... why 13 light for one only cage?

and how the set up cange with different species ? i't s important it's one of two factor i must know for finish my project

in africa we have :
25000/30000 lumens ???
5000kelvin at middle-day before 15.000 m a.s.l. ???
12 % uvb or 5 % uvb ????
uva 30% ???

this valor are true for all species or there is a cange species at species ?
or will cange only the light's set up for respect the temperature need for this species ?
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Im not sure whats going on here but we both seem to want the same levels:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/def...eally-need-know-80869/index8.html#post1023370

This is dead on for what i recommend for most cages. You just need to adjust bulb size for the height of the cage.

If you look, his numbers are:
40 uw at 15cm
7 uw at 70cm

That is perfect for a 100cm cage.

Back to OP. You dont want your kevin to change. You want it to be 6500k-5000k, its not going to change the farther you get from the bulb.

So lets shop for bulbs. you want AT LEAST 40uw 15 cm from the bulb.

I would go with a 6% T5HO since you have a short cage.
FD339T5 39W 34″/850mm T5-16mm 2000lm

So you would want a 34"/850mm bulb that will put out 2000 lumens + another 5000-6500k 34"/8500mm bulb that puts out no uv, but still 2000lumens.

That would give you plenty of light, enough uv at the top to simulate partial sun, and a good dead zone at the bottom of the cage to simulate full shade.
 

Venutus1

Avid Member
This is a great discussion!

Because, along with UV....

there are other factors that are important too.

Like overall quality of the light and the intensity.

So the animal can choose what it feels like it needs, just as it would do in Nature.

It is so awesome that the awareness of these things is now becoming part of the collective consciousness.

Cheers!
Todd
lightyourreptiles.com
 

arsnake

New Member
temporarily omit the type of lamp and their functionality and set-up (choice of the lamp).

I would like to know if the parameters (properties of light) I described reflect the values ​​found in natural ...

the question are:

1) the intensity of 25000/30000lm is the correct value for all chameleons (pigmey excluded because of primary forest habitat?
if the value changes, how does it change?
the design is correctly what should be the spread of lumen into the case from top to bottom?

2) 5000/6500 k (value that adjusts the hue of the light) is correct for all chameleons? this value must be the same in every part of the cage?

3) uvb light it's better 12% or 6%? in italy the big parts of breedeer say 6% because 12% create a eyes problems ... what's do you say about?
depends on the size of the cage, this value?
UVB light as the light intensity must go falling to the bottom of the case right?

4) the correct value of A rays is 30%?

5) the design is properly the various factors to be taken into account?, Or are there other things to keep in mind?

a personal opinion is that, altitude and latitude change these values​​, but in a minimum because of the small floppy distribution of our begnamini (africa and so) so that minimize the oscillazzioni values ​​in question, making it possible to maintain an average basis for all chameleons, which is excellent! then the values ​​in my opinion (except for pigmey) should not vary with the species, but with the change of weather! ... in this way each species assume different values ​​based on habitat requirements and, always starting from the values ​​obtained constant, constant due to the small differences between altitude and latitude of any two species in question.
 

arsnake

New Member


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

before i said that latitude and altitude aren't fondamental for set up but after draw this table we can see that instead of the chameleon habits make a difference of 3 different light set up...
and this set up must regulate with clima data of the moment...


i attempt a answer for my questions question
and i would like your comment about this paint suddivision
 

bradley

New Member
I don't know much about all lighting aspects, just enough to get me by when choosing my uv sources.

One thing I will say just because a bulb puts out more uv it will not cause eye problems. Problems will be caused when the ratio of light is wrong.

I use 12% HO T5 bulbs on panthers and veileds. People often say this will be too much
- no bulb is close to he sun yet
- many people us bulbs above screen
- you can clearly see my animals regulate uv exposure themselves
- my animals have been brighter and more active since I have used the bulbs.

Obviously with breeders if something works you are going to not want to change it but there is nothing wrong in giving these high uv sources to chameleons in a well planted cage.

People so not think twice when buying Arcadia T5 6% bulbs for chameleons but the minute you say use a 10.0 T8 they are afraid it will cause many problems. In reality the 6% T5 gives out more uv than the 10.0 T8 so if the T8 is too strong then the T5 will me much too strong.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

before i said that latitude and altitude aren't fondamental for set up but after draw this table we can see that instead of the chameleon habits make a difference of 3 different light set up...
and this set up must regulate with clima data of the moment...


i attempt a answer for my questions question
and i would like your comment about this paint suddivision

Panel 1. Its not 12%, 6% etc. It should be the the min uvb the cham needs, and a 1/3 cage dead zone with no uvb. So red square should be 50-150 uwatts of uvb, green should be 30-10 uwatts of uvb, and blue/black should have almost no uvb (full shade in the wild).

Panel 2 is correct but should be made to match your plants, not the cham. The cham will be fine as long as panel 1 is correct.

panel 3 is correct.

panel 4 is hard because most people dont deal with a good uva exposure. Normally its good enough with a correct uvb bulb, and the color is still at 6500-5000k. Most reptile/plant bulbs put out 30% uva. Also the picture is not correct. Chameleons at top of trees will get the same amount of shade as chameleons in bushes. They are all going to be under leaves. The spot where the chameleon is will mostly affect temperature and humidity, not light exposure. They are all going to hang out in leaves that get full sun at least part of the day.
 

arsnake

New Member
Panel 1. Its not 12%, 6% etc. It should be the the min uvb the cham needs, and a 1/3 cage dead zone with no uvb. So red square should be 50-150 uwatts of uvb, green should be 30-10 uwatts of uvb, and blue/black should have almost no uvb (full shade in the wild).

Panel 2 is correct but should be made to match your plants, not the cham. The cham will be fine as long as panel 1 is correct.

panel 3 is correct.

panel 4 is hard because most people dont deal with a good uva exposure. Normally its good enough with a correct uvb bulb, and the color is still at 6500-5000k. Most reptile/plant bulbs put out 30% uva. Also the picture is not correct. Chameleons at top of trees will get the same amount of shade as chameleons in bushes. They are all going to be under leaves. The spot where the chameleon is will mostly affect temperature and humidity, not light exposure. They are all going to hang out in leaves that get full sun at least part of the day.
panel 1 : what are the right % ? 50-150 uwatts/microwatt of uvb,i can't understand ...

panel 2 :eek:k, but higher the lumens are the greater the amount of photons capturable eyed , making the enviorment most 'naturally visible'. in a room with 3,000 lm there will be more dark compared to a room with 25,000 and this also favors the chameleons think?

panel 3: ok

panel 4: ok

paint: but this also for pigmy? we ll must only set the lamp at appropriate distance and leave pigmy with plants that can hide them most?so that it filters less light, simulating their natural habitat of the subforest?

in conclusion, we have one set up light. that interacts with the changing values ​​is the correct decor of the case ...right?
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
the min the cham needs is 50uw of uvb, but you can go as high as 150uw, if you can also have 1/3 the cage with no uv. Otherwise the cham cant regulate its own uvb exposure.

For brightness, 2 T5 HO lamps will be VERY bright in a 100cm tall cage. Thats about the same as 6 T8 lamps.

For your natural bright comment, Cham are shade lizards. There is no point in making the cage as bright as full sun since the cham will never be in that environment 90% of the time in the wild, they will be in the shade. So you want to make the cage a shade environment with a few spots of full sun, by placing basking lamps. The basking lamps will put out plenty of uva if they are incandescent like halogen or a normal light bulb.

"but this also for pigmy? we ll must only set the lamp at appropriate distance and leave pigmy with plants that can hide them most?so that it filters less light, simulating their natural habitat of the subforest? "

Correct. You want full plant cover on the bottom of a pigmy cage. Then they can come out of cover when they want to get the amount of uvb and basking they need. They will get the amount they need if you provide the environment to do so. The cham will decide how much uvb and basking it needs during the day, not you. You need to setup the tank so it can adjust itself. to much uvb and it cant escape, too little and it wont have strong bones. too much light and it will hide all the time, too little and it will be lethargic.
 

arsnake

New Member
waht is the relations between uW of uvb and % of uvb? sorry but i know only the % valor, i searching on the web for informations but i can't find this... the microwatt how do they determine the% uvb?
that is, what is the link between uw (lamp power) and UVB (light frequency)? from what I know there is no lamp capable to operate with only 50 uW

for the rest it's all ok... another question about kelvin lumen and uvb...
with the changing of the weather el alternation of hours (morning, afternoon, evening, night) with the seasonal difference in these values ​​will change nature ... how we can obtain data related to these values ​​in different situations?
eg in winter at noon there will be a luminous flux and color temperature different from what you would find in the summer in the morning, and both these have different values ​​compared to the values ​​in a day of rain in the evening ...
: I would like to divide these important values ​​for the best softwere ...
I believe that the minimum essential things to consider are:
- Weather: clear / cloudy
-seasons: the minimum period would differentiate between hot and fresh (rain or dry)
- Time of day: from 'power to 12:00 am, from 12:00 at 18.00 from 18.00 to shutdown, night

in this way everything would be more natural .. but the question is where do I find this information about: lumens, Kelvin?
while A rays and uvb will share only in 2 different data ... peaceful and rain
 

Venutus1

Avid Member
Get the environment correct and the animal will survive and flourish.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84540&stc=1&d=1377028345

i draw this ... say me if this paint it's correct ...if not, where i must change
ummm

the whole "kelvin" thing is.... well, a bit " off ".

:rolleyes:

The kelvin reading is the color "temperature" of the light.
That is to say: how "warm" (yellow) or "cool" (cool blue/white) the light looks to our eyes.

Natural daylight is about 5.6-ish to 6.8-ish kelvin.

The "sweet spot" is around 6.5k to match mid day tropical sun in the "whiteness" of the light.
(neither too "blue" or too "yellow")

It doesn't change as you go down deeper in the cage.
What you get out of the bulb is what you get.

Folks use 6.5k "day-light" full spectrum bulbs because they are closer than any other flo. light bulb to the "look" of real sun-light -- UV not withstanding.


The thing that I would suggest is to FIRST understand what the spectrum and components of NATURAL sunlight are.
:D


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is homework:

GO OUTSIDE on a Sunny Day.

Say "Hello" to Natural Sunlight.

OK ..
now THAT is what you are trying to duplicate inside ...

EXCEPT you are CUTTING THE UV B levels down to approximately 25% - 40% of what it is outside--
to create a margin of safety*
(*for many reasons & we can go into IF we have to..:rolleyes:)

Conversely, Google the spectrum and kelvin color temp of Natural Sunlight.
"Voila!"
There, my friends IS YOUR TEMPLATE of what you need to duplicate inside...

again...
EXCEPT you are dropping the UV B levels down for safety sake.

Now we all know that
Chams don't spend all day in full sunlight, NOR do they live all day in shade.

These creatures walk up and down branches and live in FOLIAGE in a world of DAPPLED sunlight.

And we keep in mind that some species (pygmies) and also YOUNGER (little in size) Chams stay more in the shade (i.e. hang back in the foliage)

WHY?

Well ---
the small pygmies and baby chams DON"T WANT TO GET SPOTTED and eaten!
They are so little & on the food chain, they have to be careful about exposing themselves.

That doesn't mean they don't venture also into bright shafts of sunlight!

But they will tend to not expose themselves as much to avoid predation because they are TINY!

So they need cages that offer them more places of shade-
AS WELL AS BRIGHT SPOTS.

OK.

It's that simple- look to Nature to show us the way... and then use what we learn to create our inside environments.

GET THE ENVIRONMENT CORRECT AND THE ANIMAL WILL SURVIVE AND FLOURISH.


Cheers!
Todd
www.lightyourreptiles.com
[email protected]
 
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arsnake

New Member
I agree with everything that has been exposed, but I invited you to make a further subdivision of the values ​​to be maintained in order not to have a single value for 'lumens and kelvin' throughout the year, but create different values ​​for each of the parameters, so as to best simulate the natural course:
weather, times and seasons ...
if the lamp uvb grapes are underpowered 25% 40% compared to the nature of their value will remain unchanged regardless of the factors listed above ...
unfortunately I have not yet figured out what it's worth a microwatt in% uvb? and how the transformation of value? I only know the words uvb 6% / 50 uw but I do not know of uvb ...
 

Venutus1

Avid Member
learning is fun. :)

I admire your desire to lean as much as you can!
:)

UV B are specifically the UV rays between 280 - 315 nanometers in wavelength.

The UV rays that synthesize Vit D in animals lie between 290 - 308-ish nanometers.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I wish everyone would read this--- then they would be experts too!!
:cool:
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/the-d3-cycle/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

UV A is for Reptile Vision
That UV band is the wavelengths between 315 - 400 nanometers.

See Pic.

UV C is BAD-- kills cells and sterilizes.

No UV bulb for reptiles should give off UV c waves-- wavelengths BELOW 290 nm are evil.

otherwise, severe eye problems and severe burning can result.

NOTE:
UV C rays do not hit earth, they are filtered out by the ozone layer.


I agree with everything that has been exposed, but I invited you to make a further subdivision of the values ​​to be maintained in order not to have a single value for 'lumens and kelvin' throughout the year, but create different values ​​for each of the parameters, so as to best simulate the natural course:
weather, times and seasons ...
if the lamp uvb grapes are underpowered 25% 40% compared to the nature of their value will remain unchanged regardless of the factors listed above ...
unfortunately I have not yet figured out what it's worth a microwatt in% uvb? and how the transformation of value? I only know the words uvb 6% / 50 uw but I do not know of uvb ...

Arcadia- Light For Life®
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/

Thank you!
Sincerely,
Todd Goode
 

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nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
words uvb 6% / 50 uw but I do not know of uvb

That is uvb. 50µW/cm² of uvb radiation at the top of the tank is the same as shade outside. 150µW/cm² is partial sun, and 350µW/cm² is about full sun.

the 6% 12% 5.0 10.0 are just marketing terms so you know a 12% puts out double the uvb of a 6%, and a 10.0 puts out double the uvb of a 5.0. You still need to know how much the reptile needs. Chams need 30-50µW/cm² or more to be healthy, bearded dragons and iguanas would need 150µW/cm² or more to be healthy.
 
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