SSimsswiSS
Avid Member
Very true. Don't mean to detract from the main topic/subject. Very fascinating work your doing Kris.
Life expectancy
- Thread starter Chris Anderson
- Start date
Very interesting stuff, Kris. I haven't read each article you posted, but a few responses ago, you mentioned that only adults were studied. Do you plan on going back to Madagascar during a projected hatching season to find a bit more out about the beginning of F. Labordi's life cylce?
The statement about adults was for population density data only...we have collected data on both hatchlings and juveniles for the paper on longevity.
Mael
New Member
I find this very interesting. Certain species in the wild have adapted over the course of many generations to expect poor feeding conditions. Making them well fed might not be the same as making them healthy. As with everything to do with health, too much can be just as dangerous as too little.
While we're (sorta?) on the topic I've got to ask, has anyone kept or heard of anyone keeping this species in captivity? If so, was there an artifically induced increase in lifespan?
Kent67
Retired Moderator
I belong to another email list-serve called Chametown where this research is also being discussed. Francois le Berre, author of The New Chameleon Handbook, relayed some of his experiences breeding this species in Thailand. He said that some of the animals raised in captivity lived 8 months to "a couple of years." He also said that once the animals experience a drop in temps and humidity that they seem to experience a trigger, in captivity as well, to start decling and that once they begin it is very difficult to turn them back around. He also stated that adults in the wild go underground to wait for the rainy season. 
He also stated that adults in the wild go underground to wait for the rainy season.
If he has extensive field data, he should really submit them for publication and let them be evaluated by the peer review process. That is how science works.
So Pirate55
Member
i haven't read kris's paper other than what was in the Nat. Geo Article but my interest has now been peaked so to speak.
Kent, you say Francois mentions that adults go underground for to "wait" for the rainy season. Personally I'd like to know whether or not he actually found individuals underground in a state of suspended animation or was that only an assumption due to not seeing adults during the dry season? I could easily see where someone wouldn't find any adults in the dry season and then jump to the conclusion that they must be underground or something similar. There are other reptiles and amphibians that behave in this manner. In fact, it'd make sense to form this hypothesis but until it's backed up with the data then it's nothing more than a guess. All I'm saying is that I could see where the 4-5 month lifespan wouldn't be the first thing I thought of when not finding adults, but I wouldnt really venture to say this in nothing more than a guess if I didnt have proof. I agree on the peer review. It could only bring good things, and would definitely raise questions that one may have not even thought of.
Wow, 4 years of Bio only to go to work for a local printing company. man i sold out.
Kent, you say Francois mentions that adults go underground for to "wait" for the rainy season. Personally I'd like to know whether or not he actually found individuals underground in a state of suspended animation or was that only an assumption due to not seeing adults during the dry season? I could easily see where someone wouldn't find any adults in the dry season and then jump to the conclusion that they must be underground or something similar. There are other reptiles and amphibians that behave in this manner. In fact, it'd make sense to form this hypothesis but until it's backed up with the data then it's nothing more than a guess. All I'm saying is that I could see where the 4-5 month lifespan wouldn't be the first thing I thought of when not finding adults, but I wouldnt really venture to say this in nothing more than a guess if I didnt have proof. I agree on the peer review. It could only bring good things, and would definitely raise questions that one may have not even thought of.
Wow, 4 years of Bio only to go to work for a local printing company. man i sold out.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
Hey folks, I'm only reporting what he said. That was in response, after reading the articles referred to. As someone whom I believe has also had extensive knowledge of chameleons in Madagascar, as far back as the early 90s when he was exporting basically every species there to the US, I don't think he would have made that statement, after reading about Kris's research, based on an assumption. Maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, thanks for explaining how science works.
Kent,
Please don't take my comments as being directed AT you. I completely understand you are the messenger in this scenario. I have had Francois' comment forwarded to me already, so I was aware of what he has said. However, it can be a little frustrating when someone makes a claim without any empirical data to support that claim. I'm not saying that Francois is wrong, but I am saying that I would genuinely like to see his data published and evaluated by his scientific peers.
Our sample size for the paper that was published this week was for 399 individuals (southern populations). We have combed through any and all data available for museum specimens collected throughout labordi's range. And I am now currently collaborating with some other researchers on a second paper with a sample size of 139 for populations in the northern part of labordi's range. So out of these ~600 data points, we have yet to find an exception to falsify our annual species hypothesis. If they do aestivate over the dry season, as suggested by Francois, surely we would find at least 1 adult present in either November or December out of those 600 samples, but we don't. I hate to sound pissy or conceded, but you can imagine how I may be a little skeptical of claims without data given the amount of evidence that we have to the contrary.
Please don't take my comments as being directed AT you. I completely understand you are the messenger in this scenario. I have had Francois' comment forwarded to me already, so I was aware of what he has said. However, it can be a little frustrating when someone makes a claim without any empirical data to support that claim. I'm not saying that Francois is wrong, but I am saying that I would genuinely like to see his data published and evaluated by his scientific peers.
Our sample size for the paper that was published this week was for 399 individuals (southern populations). We have combed through any and all data available for museum specimens collected throughout labordi's range. And I am now currently collaborating with some other researchers on a second paper with a sample size of 139 for populations in the northern part of labordi's range. So out of these ~600 data points, we have yet to find an exception to falsify our annual species hypothesis. If they do aestivate over the dry season, as suggested by Francois, surely we would find at least 1 adult present in either November or December out of those 600 samples, but we don't. I hate to sound pissy or conceded, but you can imagine how I may be a little skeptical of claims without data given the amount of evidence that we have to the contrary.
jojackson
New Member
Wow, what a fantastic read! Im a firm beleiver in evolution/adaption myself, I think it's self evident and can be clearly seen living species today. At the same time, while carefully avoiding phrases like 'intelligent design', if you study enough of nature you discover too many perfect consistancys in symbiosis between species in both plant and animal, infact everything fits except us. (look at how we manipulate our enviroment, often for the worst. nothing too intelligent in that lol) With this in mind 'design' is an understandable concept that folk can live with.
I say the earth and its life/enviroment are a hell of an incredible 'natural accident' and Im glad to be here to observe it!
Chameleons are a fantastic creature, little dinosaurs in my book, I dont care much either way how they came to be so, Id just like them to continue to exist.
heres a good read
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm
I say the earth and its life/enviroment are a hell of an incredible 'natural accident' and Im glad to be here to observe it!
Chameleons are a fantastic creature, little dinosaurs in my book, I dont care much either way how they came to be so, Id just like them to continue to exist.
heres a good read
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm
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jojackson
New Member
heres something worth the read for those who cant accept evolution
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080417112433.htm
SYeretzian
New Member
Dont many insects do the exact same thing as F. labordi? I know the Locusts or Cincaids here pop up every summer scream-mate-die, leaving only eggs in the ground for the future.
Maybe god created evolution and figured everything would just work itself out-kinda like coughing on a piece of bread and leaving it in a dark place for a while to see what kind of growth you get on it. That was meant to make you laugh not get angry, so please stay happy and on topic sorry I had to throw my weird thought into the mix, I cant help that im human.
Maybe god created evolution and figured everything would just work itself out-kinda like coughing on a piece of bread and leaving it in a dark place for a while to see what kind of growth you get on it. That was meant to make you laugh not get angry, so please stay happy and on topic sorry I had to throw my weird thought into the mix, I cant help that im human.
summoner12
Avid Member
Amen
are you telling me we didn't exist alongside dinosaurs!??!
Edit: a LOT of good reading here!
are you telling me we didn't exist alongside dinosaurs!??!
Edit: a LOT of good reading here!
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eisentrauti
Avid Member
are you telling me we didn't exist alongside dinosaurs!??!
Edit: a LOT of good reading here!
Do you think mankind exist alongside to the dinosaurs ???
alhickabee
New Member
Not very good with sarcasm are you?Do you think mankind exist alongside to the dinosaurs ???
Interesting stuff.....
BocaJan
New Member
are you telling me we didn't exist alongside dinosaurs!??!
LOL - a good one
eisentrauti
Avid Member
No, I'm very good with sarcasm - but in my foreign language
* 49% der Amerikaner glauben nicht, dass sich Menschen über Jahrmillionen entwickelt haben.
* 51% der Amerikaner glauben, dass Menschen und Dinosaurier zur gleichen Zeit gelebt haben.
* 85% der Amerikaner denken, dass Archäologen Dinosaurier studieren.
Something I read about americans (translated):
49% of the americans don't believe that mankind developed in million of years
51% of the americans believe that mankind and dinosaurs lived together
85% of the americans believe that archeologists studie dinosaurs
And here's a single page of an american school book:
http://moeglichkeiten.stolze.us/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/arche.png
So I hope you understand why I think he believes this facts
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