Lets talk Quarantine

[sandrachameleon]

... As I have been importing for a decade, raising CB and WC animals in proximity for a decade, might I add that my concern is not for "the ones that I have not read about", but more importantly for those that I have experienced, and then what are prudent quarantines to follow.

I'd be interested to hear what you think is appropriate in terms of quarantine, based on your experience. including the top issues you are hoping to avoid by doing so, if you quarantine at all that is.

I quarantine a new animal for about a month. Primarily, I am doing this
1 - because its frequently suggested, common practise
2 - to get a fecal test done to ensure the newbie is clear of pinworms, coccidia etc. prior to its going into the room that houses "everybody else". This is both to ensure the other pets are less likely to "catch" and so that i can tell the breeder with confidence that it arrived ill (if it did) and didnt catch anything from my other pets.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I'd be interested to hear what you think is appropriate ...........

....... to get a fecal test done to ensure the newbie is clear of pinworms, coccidia etc

It will be tomorrow before I have that kind of volunteer time, but you have posted very solid advice about your own practices as it relates to what is known, and not wild speculation. Kudos to Dodolah as well. Before I took, or take, the time to share what I have experienced, I wanted to solicit the basis for advice that I saw as a bit too speculative and misinformed. You never know, by maybe I could learn a thing or two before I put my foot in my mouth. For the record, there is some basis for concerns with viral pathogens in some mainland sub-Saharan African species, such as melleri, that does not seem to be an issue with Madagascar species, veileds, etc. To my knowledge, no viral pathogens have been identified as being cause for alarm with Malagasy species. Parasites, and especially coccidia, seem to be the issues worthy of attention. Quarantine for such is not draconean, but has its necessary parameters.

 

[Pure]

The only thing I don't agree with is keeping the animal in a separate room because of a fear of internal parasites. Internal Parasites do not jump from one cage to another by magic. There has to be some form of cross contamination. Keep this from happening and there is no need to worry.

In my case with the imported angels..The Mrs didn't know what net was for them and them only. She also failed to ask.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

I have never quarantined any animal. The only ones I would be concerned about
are wild amphibians, for the fear of chytrid fungus. Which is simple to treat
even then.

I subscribe to the philosophy of 'Heat em and feed em' as described by a herpetologist
I admire, Robb Blaine here in Canada.

He says that reptiles live in harmony with all this stuff in the wild, so why
is it an issue in captivity? Because we don't provide them the right food,
or the right amount of heat.

Given a high enough temperature for thermoregulation, a reptile will deal with
its own problems on its own time. A range from 70-105F or 115+ for deserts reptiles
will allow them to get to the right spot they need to treat themselves.

As for diet, gutloading with foods that prevent worms and diseases such
as peppers, ginger, dandelion root, among many others (cloves is a natural
cure for worms), will help with parasite loads.



That said, if you are getting an animal that appears to be sick, then I'd
suggest quarantine until it becomes healthy again, which really shouldn't
take more than 2 months. I just got a frilled dragon that was 30 grams
and in a month and a half he's already up to 65 grams and much more active
and alert than he was before.

Panacur (fenbendazol) once or twice a year isn't too bad of an idea either,
since it is a medication that is safe even at several hundred times the
recommended dose. This is one of the best ways to get rid of any worms.

But the best way to sum this all up, is do what works best for you.
A big part of quarantine is the peace of mind of the lizard's owner.

 

[sandrachameleon]

As for diet, gutloading with foods that prevent worms and diseases such as peppers, ginger, dandelion root, among many others (cloves is a natural cure for worms), will help with parasite loads.

interesting! i didnt know dandelion root was edible, much less useful. Yet another reason to pull weeds.

A big part of quarantine is the peace of mind of the lizard's owner.

truly!
If I think I'm doing something good, and it makes me feel better...well I still feel better even if I maybe wasnt relly doing much harm prevention

 

[jojackson]

I was than hoping some information regarding chameleon disease might come to light via this discussion. I dont know if there are known viral communicative diseases associated with chameleons , cham company, you tell me. You search the bloody internet if you are genuinely intrested and not simply being a smartarse because your a big breeder who never had a problem. (This is how you come across)
It may not pay you to quarantine animals prior to sale and nobody suggested you should,
only that quarantining new arrivals, of any species, prior to introduction to your collection is recommended.

Quarantine, equally applies to the quarantine of equipment etc between one cage and another. Standard good practice advice regarding cross-contamination prevention seems lacking in the 'Do's' list of husbandry advice here is all Im saying.

Isnt the point of genral recommendations not to purchase chameleons before 3 months of age touted here, because those younger than 3 months are considered more susceptible to both lousy husbandry and related illness, due to infantile immune system?
Then wouldnt quarantining a new animal, particularly a young animal, Along with anti-cross contamination protocols for say 3 months, be in the best intrest of your new cham, as much as of those you have already? If you consider a 3 month cham robust enough to withstand anything, then a further 3 months without contact with other pets while it develops a strong healthy immune system be in its favour if it does end up with coccidia etc from the lack of anti-cross contamination measures later.

People get slack and complacent, its a fact. A good dose of coccidia or the like will harder hit a 3 month animal than a 6 month one, no?

Pure, no ofcourse Internal parasites dont jump accross the room from one to another,
but again, without preventative practice, folk do all kinds of things, add animals to the same cage, mix n swap plants and equipment without thought, the list goes on.

If somebody buys a cham on impulse (happens to often) they go home and shove it in the same cage as another animal temporarily till they buy/build a new cage.
If the first animal is carrying parasites, its droppings have been all over the cage, possibly feeder bugs aswell, it wont be difficult for the new cham to become infected, or vice versa.

The whole point is Nobodys husbandry is perfect and for this reason I beleive quarantining new arrivals and practicing hygene protols to ensure against cross contamination should be encouraged.

Who takes their animals droopings to the vet for feceals so often that they can be certain their animals are totally parasite or disease free at any given time?
Not many id bet!

Something worth reading~ Imported Chams (see section 4 of 'summary')

http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/wildcaughthealth.html

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/26/4/572.pdf

INFECTIOUS DISEASES

Bacterial and parasitic problems are common in chameleons. Also, concurrent unidentified viral infections may complicate both infectious and non-infectious problems. To minimize the spread of infectious disease, new chameleons should be quarantined in a separate room for a minimum of 60 days (preferably 90 days). During quarantine, several fecal samples should be collected and checked for parasites. Specimens should be observed to see if they are feeding and defecating normally (watch for signs of illness as well). The longer the new specimens are isolated, the greater the chance of identifying a problem and keeping diseases from spreading through an existing collection.

http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/chameleons.asp

Detection and isolation of an iridovirus from chameleons (Chamaeleo quadricornis and Chamaeleo hoehnelli) in the United Kingdom
S. E. N. Drury, R. E. Gough, and I. Calvert


http://veterinaryrecord.bvapublications.com/cgi/content/citation/150/14/451

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1645/0022-3395(2001)087[1104:EHNSAE]2.0.CO;2?journalCode=para

 

[Pure]

People are stupid Joe. They will do stupid things. Can't stop that. But to tell a new guy. "put any and all new Chams in a different room because if you don't they will spread parasites." Is not just wrong it's idiotic. Instead warn them about possible cross contamination and leave it at that. Really that's about all you can do.

I'm not saying that is what you are saying. Or that is what you would say. I just disagree with anyone who currently practices this for said reason.

Now to tell them "possible air born pathogens can be passed through the air from one Cham to another, so put all new arrivals in a separate room." would be a little bit better. But really If the Chams are in the same house and you have central AC. Your screwed if one is carrying a nasty airborne bug. So what would be the point in separate rooms?

You better stop being nice to me. I might think you like me.

 

[jojackson]

But really If the Chams are in the same house and you have central AC. Your screwed if one is carrying a nasty airborne bug. So what would be the point in separate rooms?

Good point! central AC is not too common here so that didnt occur to me.

You better stop being nice to me. I might think you like me.

Now that you mention it, I have a slight temperature today, not feeling well.......

 

[kinyonga]

Fungi...
"Airborne CANV propagules may have accounted for the Group
D control animal developing an epidermal fungal lesion"...
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache...riesii"+AND+airborne&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

"The causative agent is the Chrysosporium anamorph of Nannizziopsis vriesii (CANV). It is a contagious infection, spreading readily through a colony."...
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Reptiles-704/Western-Bearded-Dragons.htm

Viruses...
http://books.google.ca/books?id=JMT...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#PPA187,M1
(BTW...the Parson's and carpet chameleons infected with CANV, a fungus mentioned in this site were mine. Good thing I quarantined them.)

Iridoviruses have been reported to spread to chameleons within the same room as an infected chameleon. Its possible that they can infect crickets too.

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/4/572
http://books.google.ca/books?id=hhO...76jWBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8445790

Advice from a well-known vet...
http://www.seavs.com/case_studies/lizards/chameleons.asp
"Bacterial and parasitic problems are common in chameleons. Also, concurrent unidentified viral infections may complicate both infectious and non-infectious problems. To minimize the spread of infectious disease, new chameleons should be quarantined in a separate room for a minimum of 60 days (preferably 90 days). During quarantine, several fecal samples should be collected and checked for parasites. Specimens should be observed to see if they are feeding and defecating normally (watch for signs of illness as well). The longer the new specimens are isolated, the greater the chance of identifying a problem and keeping diseases from spreading through an existing collection."

 

[Chameleon Company]

Jo,

Pure hit the nail on the head with regard to taking a better look at what we know, based on years of experience by all, vs. speculating contrary to current data. You cited IBD in boids as an example that we should be concerned about in making quarantine decisions for chameleons, while others decided to focus of the known issues, such as parasites, coccidia, etc. I thank those that pursued the latter for their more reasoned approach. I guess I can thank you for the kind words

Dr. Stahl at SEAV is advocating caution. The area that he mentions most prominently are parasites etc of the gastro-intestinal variety, and the ability to identify them accurately by observing feeding and defecation normalcy, and running fecals through a vet or other competent party. In our experience, this is where the overwhelming risk exists for animal to animal pathogenic contamination. Whether it be a shared cage for lack of space, a breeding attempt, or putting a newly arrived animal in a cage that had a recent previous occupant without fully cleaning the cage, intestinal parasites, whether it be roundworms, coccidia, etc., are not known to transmit by airborne particulate. While most would easily understand the opportunity for disease transmission in breeding and shared contact, many are not as aware of the staying power of such as coccidia, which is known to survive in contaminated soil for 6 months or more, ready to infect the next cage occupant.

Our own experience is that a 30 day quarantine and two fecals, one early in the quarantine and one late, is a pragmatic approach with newly arrived chameleons. If folks choose to do more based on their own desires, that would be their call. As noted by Dr. Stahl, observation is key to the evaluation process. Where we have had experience with what I believe are minimal viral issues, fungus, etc., we have usually found a husbandry deficiency that enabled the pathogen. We have never encountered anything that posed a threat to a colony, such as the IBD example, where good husbandry and reasonable separation was maintained. At this point, the odds of such existing are getting quite long, IMMHO.

I see no merit in associating the immune system of a three month old chameleon as being on par with the under-developed immune system of a 3 month old human, and then making quarantine decisions based on some non-supported parallel. That's a couple of dots too far for me to connect.

Back to work

 

[jojackson]

I see no merit in associating the immune system of a three month old chameleon as being on par with the under-developed immune system of a 3 month old human,

Neither do I , please re-read, I never said anything like that, never even mentioned human babies! thats entirely your invention mate!
A good effort to insert words in my mouth that I never spoke or Implied in order to discredit in one fell swoop, everything else I did say. Oldest trick in the book, cheapest too, you ought to be a politician!

Anyone capable of basic reading and comprehension can see for themselves in black n white exactly what I wrote, and further, im confident nobody could possibly miscomprehend what I wrote as such, therefore I beleive your statement deliberate. (see above).

Dr. Stahl at SEAV is advocating caution.

So Am I. Why do you seem to have a major problem with that? No skin off your nose is it!

 

[Chameleon Company]

...... sigh

The recommendation within the chameleon community to not purchase chameleons considered "small", and usually concurrently "young", which you cite as 3 months, is not based on infantile immune shortfalls. That is a trait most often associated with breast feeding mammals, but also with some other species that require nurturing by a parent after birth. Two month old chameleons do not by nature have a more compromised immune system than four month old chameleons due to age, or some notion of an "infantile immune system". In chameleons the issue of age/size is one of surviving shipping, etc, where a smaller body mass will more quickly succumb to shifts in temperature, water deprivation, crushing or pressure, etc. Other hobbyist/buyers may also see the advantage in buying a chameleon that is already better started as being a sign that it is a good feeder. Were there health issues, they would also be easier to spot in a larger animal. Poor husbandry by the breeder/seller would, however, become more apparent the older the animal was.

As noted, I thought that some of the information in this thread that was used to characterize the consideratons needed to be taken into account in devising a quarantine regimen were a bit of a stretch.

Always glad to clear things up. Now let me see what it costs to ship a box of bandaids across the pond ...... and then to crank up the exploratory committee for the 2010 elections ......

 

[jojackson]

better started

???= more robust, stronger immune system, less susceptable to temp fluctuations, less fragile, better able to cope with stresses of shipping etc, same meaning.

Two month old chameleons do not by nature have a more compromised immune system than four month old chameleons due to age, or some notion of an "infantile immune system".

YOU said 'compromised', not me, still putting words in my mouth. Why twist it?

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1670/07-133.1?journalCode=hpet

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#PPA203,M1

One current study focuses on phospholipase A2, an enzyme providing innate immunity in alligators that is also present in humans. Interestingly, the enzyme isn’t found in newly hatched alligators, but, by one year of age, it is a part of their repertoire of resistance.

http://www.lamar.edu/newsevents/cc/461_7552.htm

Logic will tell you that as animal ages and is therfor exposed to a variety of common pathogens
both airborn and otherwise in the enviroment its immune system must cope and grow stronger.

 

[kinyonga]

BTW, the fungus Nannizziopsis vriesii is thought to be a primary pathogen not an opportunistic one. (A primary pathogen may establish infection in an immunologically normal host whereas an opportunistic pathogen requires some compromise of host defenses in order for infection to become established so while its possible a husbandry deficiency enables an opportunistic pathogen it seems its not necessarily so in this case.)

Anybody have any comments about eggs laid by new arrivals? I have read that salmonella can penetrate eggs and it hasn't been excluded that adenoviruses can...so it can be passed to the hatchlings.

 

[Heika]

Quarantine procedures are quite strict with my collection. New animals are kept seperate for a minimum of 90 days. Within the first week, new animals have a fecal test and a blood test, and then receive treatment and/or additional fecal tests every month. Every single one of the large chameleons in my collection, new or not, receives a fecal every month and a blood test every two months. Leaf chameleons.. well, there are a lot of them, so I run 2 or 3 fecals per enclosure. Don't forget about the blood test.. fecals come up clean when there is a parasite in the blood.

The reason I am so weird about it? A couple years ago I lost about half my large breed chameleons to a nasty, rare, and almost unstopable parasite. The infection jumped from cage to cage. I took drastic measures to stop it, finally euthenizing animals at the first sign of illness. I burned cage sets rather than try to clean and reuse them. My vet was at my place almost every day to help, and the bills ran into the thousands. In fact, I just finished paying off the vet last month. I lost nearly 50 healthy panthers, veileds, johnstons, and other species of chameleons.

Lesson learned. No matter who an animal comes from, regardless of how much I trust a breeder, the chameleon goes into quarantine. There were a lot of painful things that happened during that episode that I won't even begin to go into, but the worst was losing animals that had been with me for several years.

Just don't take the risk.. quarantine. And, quarantine for a long time. Wash your hands thoroughly right after you handle an animal, and never touch another animal, its enclosure, or its food before you do that.

 

[Brad]

It is has been suggested that a sticky explaining the steps to take regarding the quarantine of a new chameleon be posted as a sticky. I'll continue to follow the thread and appreciate any advice experienced keepers can provide.

 

[kinyonga]

Due to having experienced several things that could have spread through my collection (and one that I actually did lose animals to), I err on the side of caution. I would rather quarantine a lizard when I did not need to than not quarantine one that I should have...reflects the old adage "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"...and in some cases there is no "cure".

Also, there may be viruses, etc. that one animal can handle and show no apparent symptoms of, but when that animal is introduced to the rest of the collection passes it on and those ones can't handle it. I don't know how to ensure that this doesn't happen without going to extremes.

Brock said...Robb Blaine said that "reptiles live in harmony with all this stuff in the wild, so why is it an issue in captivity? Because we don't provide them the right food, or the right amount of heat." It might be true that they could cope with what they normally would encounter in the wild but we are taking them out of their wild and bringing them in contact with things that they wouldn't have to cope with there. There are parasites, fungi, bacteria and viruses that they might meet in captivity that they wouldn't have to cope with in the wild if the animals in our collection have come from different areas. Also, there are species-specific parasites, etc. that when introduced to a species that normally wouldn't get them, can go places in the body and cause problems that they wouldn't cause to the specific host.

Consider for instance someone who keeps one chameleon species, if they add new ones to their collection that have come through/from facilities that house other reptiles, they may be carrying "unnatural" (to them) viruses, etc. that they picked up along the way....so introducing them to your collection without quarantining them may introduce whatever they have picked up to their collection too.

IMHO, quarantine is something that is worth doing until the health of the animal being brought in has been determined.