Is your Cham, Fat? Unhealthy? Not receiving Proper Care? Not just New Keepers!

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Sigh this is why I left the facebook groups.

Seen this tonight, in a post about Average Lifespan.

"In another chameleon group I’m in people have older animals. It really seems that if you take care of them well and follow naturalistic husbandry they can live longer than is what is seen currently. Most captive chameleons are unhealthy and incredibly overweight so we don’t have a true understanding of their average captive lifespan. But yes, I was speaking about males not females. "

If the poster is a member here, I mean no offense to you, nor the group this was posted in, its one of the few groups I can stomach.

I started to write my thoughts, but I just cant right now, I will later, what I would say right now would not be appropriate, and I am trying very hard to be more behaved these days :). For now, I would like the communities thoughts?

Oh, btw the "Average Lifespan of Panther Chameleons is 10 years, if you follow Petr Nectas's naturalistic husbandry" (she didn't say Petrs, but we know what she means) that was the OP, which was then presented with the Average lifespan was 5-7 years, and this was the reply.

Edit:


Okay so Full Context of the remainder of the Post.

"Thats a vast generalization that simply isnt true. The Kammers have the Longest lived Panther Chameleon I have ever read of, at 9 years. Along with Matt the Vanilla Gorilla.

Plenty of the best breeders in the world, state the same average 5-7 years. You may have a Cham that lives 10 years, but you would be lucky and certainly should not go in expecting that.

I know where that "Naturalistic Husbandry" thing and the other statements stem from, and while they may prove to be reality, however its been less than 2 years that has been a thing. There is zero evidence that any of that is reality, although it may be pushed like there is. No one can honestly tell you that to be fact, that using those methods will increase life span, or are a superior way of care. They can say they think it is, from early testing, however there is Zero long term data on that. "


"And the opposite is true. Husbandry is always changing and people are taking better care of their animals every day. But those achievable life spans are what Petr Necas says is possible and he has done extensive research on chameleons in the wild. I’m apt to believe him and other researchers who spend time with wild chameleons. Considering how rare it is to see healthy chameleons online I don’t doubt that they can live longer than they currently do. But we can agree to disagree. Regardless of lifespan I’ll be happy when I don’t see obese chameleons in my Facebook feed every day."

You are welcome to any belief you would like. However to tout that the average life span will be increased by a change in care, without ANY Proven fact is ill advised. No real Scientist would EVER make such a statement at all. I will leave it at that.

I choose to not live in worlds of Fantasy personally, but by all means you do you.

That does not change the Facts, the Fact is the Average Lifespan of a Panther chameleon is 5-7 years, with fringe cases of 8 years. What you think might improve that duration was not the topic of discussion, the Average Lifespan TODAY, for a FACT, is 5-7 years.



There you Go :). I think that was an appropriate reply, where I did not get too out of line. So I will leave it with that.
I will continue to read your thoughts on the subject, as I would like to know what they are, but will not post in the thread further. I have emotion mixed up in this, and thus have to be very careful how I state things, regarding it. So I will be bowing out, but am truly interested in your thoughts.
 
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kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
5 to 7 years for what species? Veileds? For veileds almost every female I have lives to at least 7 years and males longer.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
5 to 7 years for what species? Veileds? For veileds almost every female I have lives to at least 7 years and males longer.

Oh my Bad, Panther, Longest I have heard of is the Kammers and Matt the Vanilla Gorilla having 9 year olds. That is the only 2 9 year olds I have ever heard of, and the 8 years are in the low digits.

I updated the OP, to reflect I was speaking on Panthers, I am aware Veileds live longer :).

I agree.. 10 years.. maybe but with what data? with what species?

That was exactly the point. There is no data, because this care method has not been around for even 2 years mustless 10.....
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm waiting to see what the naturalistic method does for longevity and health. It might work for people who live in the right climate and for others not, too.
 
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cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
im waiting to see what the naturalistic method does for longevity and health. It might work for people who live in the right climate and for others not too.

Im not saying it will or wont work, I am saying that speaking in absolutes with ZERO data to back it up, is not a good trait in my mind.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
OP has been updated, with the remainder of the Convo, with my closing thoughts Underlined. Thats it from me, but I look forward to see the discussion and thoughts regarding this. This is a major subject in this community, that I feel is being Ignored or let slide, without speaking of it. I do not feel that is the best idea for this community to do.
 
For veileds almost every female I have lives to at least 7 years
Glad to hear there are more longer-lived females out there, my old girl lived to be 8 years and 9 months old before passing despite the '4-6 year' average lifespan a lot of (albeit unreliable) sources say.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
whats the avg life span of a female panther ?

Less than a Male, but thats not always applicable. I thinks its said to be like 3-6, due to the laying. Depends heavily on care and clutch size, laying 75 eggs every clutch is alot harder on a Female than laying 20-30, thats why its suggested to lower temps and feeding for females so they will lay less.
 

JacksJill

Moderator
Staff member
I haven't had time to read all that Petr has posted lately to know if he made that claim or just said it was a possibility. I have difficulty reading some of his posts due to syntax. If he has several captive bred panthers that are approaching 10 years old that would be fantastic. I would like to see the data. Without that data it would be incorrect or premature to assume a correlation or cause and effect.
He makes good points about obesity and some other over done things not being good husbandry. Obesity is a common problem with pets of many species. We tend to associate love with food and feed too much in general.
 
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