Is my Cham crying?

[KobaOregonherper]

My main point stays though -- base emotions are responses to stimuli -- so yes, I think chameleons experience emotions in response to stimuli in their environment. That is the way all things navigate the world. emotions are more developed and complex instincts. Now does a chameleon love/want attention in the way say a child or even a dog would -- Nah. They hate us all -- to be sure!

Should we colloquially refer to them as emotions? Probably not for the exact reason Brody mentioned -- it can personify chameleons to young and inexperienced keepers to mistake issues for "cuddles" or some other human-like response.

Agreed.

 

[KobaOregonherper]

I didnt read the entire thread but I think coming to a conclusion on something so complicated without being a scientist in a related field is a bit close-minded. Its one thing to have an opinion, or an educated opinion, and another to write something off as impossible.

The very definition of emotion is “a natural instinctive state of mind deriving from ones circumstances, mood, or relationship with others.” if your chameleon is pissed off because you entered its space - thats an emotion, not an instinct. Flattening out, falling to the ground, or biting your finger off are the instincts, driven by the emotion of fear. Fight/flight is our natural response TO fear. Now I agree animals are pre-programmed to have a natural fear of things, but again fear is an emotion. So you cant use a blanket statement saying Chameleons cannot feel emotion.

My opinion is, unless we have vested scientists in the room, this is all open to interpretation. If when you say they cannot feel emotion, you mean that chameleons cannot feel love or attachment, thats one thing... but you cannot say they do not feel fear, desire, anxiety, anger, etc. Those are defined emotions that all of my chameleons most definitely feel and express.

Hello,

almost vested scientist in the room.

 

[KobaOregonherper]

No, absolutely not. Chameleons do not have emotions, period.

This is not up for debate. All four of you are confusing involuntary instinctual reactions with some type of crude emotion. Wanting it does not make it true.

My exact words every damn day in the biology classes I intern for. (Note my frustration having to explain this all the time, this is an emotion)

 

[KobaOregonherper]

My Cham loves being taken out of his cage, and he either sits on top of my head/shoulder, or roams my bedroom. When I go to put him back, he always climbs up my arm, trying to get back on my shoulder/head. I had found this strange because anywhere I read says that they dont like being handled, but I got used to it. But that's not why I'm on here, Yesterday I left my house for half an hour to pick up feeder crickets for him, my baby beardie and my two sun skinks. I left Loki (my cham) on a branch I keep by his cage. When I got back he was still sitting there, but there was a stream of water running from his eye. When I walked up to the branch, he put his two front arms out and grabbed onto my shirt and started climbing. Is my cham lonely? Is there anything wrong with him?

As for the crying. Chameleons actually use water they get from misting to clean their eyes. So you will occassionally see them "crying" or even jutting watter out their eyes. Beforehand you'll usually notice their eyes convulsing. The lining in their turrets is much like the lining of our mouths, if they dont clean this or they become dehydrated it turns more course and a lot like the tecture of our arm skin. If the fluid is anything but clear see a vet.

 

[JoXie411]

My exact words every damn day in the biology classes I intern for. (Note my frustration having to explain this all the time, this is an emotion)

Note my frustration that y’all are still missing the point. Good bye I’m annoyed to my core about this

 

[snitz427]

Hello,

almost vested scientist in the room.

There are no trophies for almost!

 

[KobaOregonherper]

There are no trophies for almost!

You almost had a point, almost.

 

[snitz427]

You almost had a point, almost.

To what extent? The definition of emotion?

I realize that when many think of emotion they’re thinking like a human... but unless there are different, scientific, biology-based definitions of the words (and there very well may be)... then they experience and sometimes express the definition of emotion, and the definition of many emotions.

Would you say they are incapable of experiencing anxiety, when in an unfamiliar or unsuitable enclosure? Incapable of fear? Whether it is instinct or not to fear something, fear is an emotion, too. Going strictly by definition.

 

[KobaOregonherper]

To what extent? The definition of emotion?

I realize that when many think of emotion they’re thinking like a human... but unless there are different, scientific, biology-based definitions of the words (and there very well may be)... then they experience and sometimes express the definition of emotion, and the definition of many emotions.

Would you say they are incapable of experiencing anxiety, when in an unfamiliar or unsuitable enclosure? Incapable of fear? Whether it is instinct or not to fear something, fear is an emotion, too. Going strictly by definition.

Emotions are controlled by chemicals and parts of the brain that are not present in a chameleon. They do not experience fear or anxiety under the context your labeling them no. Every action, including the ones you mentioned before, like reaching into their cage are, in fact, instinctual. They arent angry at you, or mad at you. You are entering their space of protection, their natural instinct is to get puffed up and fight or hiss. They stop doing this when they "trust" you. But they dont trust in the sense that we trust. They see you as a non threat, you are no longer a danger that is going to trigger their fight or flight response. Until you do something that reverts their brains, like a vet visit, dropping them, or not feeding. Can you label these as fear or anger? Absolutely, but you have to understand the difference.

As an example epinephrine (C9H13NO3) also known as adrenaline, is a chemical that is given off when becoming angry. It allows the amygdala to send signals to the frontal lobe of your brain that then allows your neurotransmitters to speed up your heart rate, which then allows your body to show other signs that you are becoming angry. (Lazer focus, heavy breathing, foggy vison, red cheeks etc.)

None of this is present, physically, in a chameleon. So again no, from a purely scientific stand point chameleons do not feel emotion, since this example can be used for every emotion.

 

[GoodKarma19]

Emotions are controlled by chemicals and parts of the brain that are not present in a chameleon. They do not experience fear or anxiety under the context your labeling them no. Every action, including the ones you mentioned before, like reaching into their cage are, in fact, instinctual. They arent angry at you, or mad at you. You are entering their space of protection, their natural instinct is to get puffed up and fight or hiss. They stop doing this when they "trust" you. But they dont trust in the sense that we trust. They see you as a non threat, you are no longer a danger that is going to trigger their fight or flight response. Until you do something that reverts their brains, like a vet visit, dropping them, or not feeding. Can you label these as fear or anger? Absolutely, but you have to understand the difference.

As an example epinephrine (C9H13NO3) also known as adrenaline, is a chemical that is given off when becoming angry. It allows the amygdala to send signals to the frontal lobe of your brain that then allows your neurotransmitters to speed up your heart rate, which then allows your body to show other signs that you are becoming angry. (Lazer focus, heavy breathing, foggy vison, red cheeks etc.)

None of this is present, physically, in a chameleon. So again no, from a purely scientific stand point chameleons do not feel emotion, since this example can be used for every emotion.

Well, I enjoy my soulless, unfeeling little monster. I assume we all do, since we're all here on this awesome forum!

I appreciate the informative post - I'd rather a precise explanation (or, at least, the cliff notes version), than a "no, you're wrong" argument.

Still off topic though! Can we put this to bed, now?

 

[KobaOregonherper]

Well, I enjoy my soulless, unfeeling little monster. I assume we all do, since we're all here on this awesome forum!

I appreciate the informative post - I'd rather a precise explanation (or, at least, the cliff notes version), than a "no, you're wrong" argument.

Still off topic though! Can we put this to bed, now?

I created another thread for this topic so we could leave this poor thread alone lol

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Well, I enjoy my soulless, unfeeling little monster. I assume we all do, since we're all here on this awesome forum!

I appreciate the informative post - I'd rather a precise explanation (or, at least, the cliff notes version), than a "no, you're wrong" argument.

Still off topic though! Can we put this to bed, now?

There was never a "no, your wrong argument." You were told two pages ago and several times that chams do not posses the anatomical features required to experience emotions. You chose to persist.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Note my frustration that y’all are still missing the point. Good bye I’m annoyed to my core about this

No, we get it, have from the beginning. Just don’t share your concern.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

This continues to fail to be helpful, Brody. We understand your point. You can stop beating the horse, now. It's dead.

Ill quit beating it when y'all quit trying to bring it back to life.

 

[Lennoncham]

Ill quit beating it when y'all quit trying to bring it back to life.

Why do you continue to fight about this.

Fact: you had a good point.

Fact: you gave no real explanation to your point and just kept re iterating that they don’t have emotions.

This is now 4 pages of a useless thread. No intelligent conversation going on here. Although there is intelligent facts behind the argument it should have been presented in a different way then just definitive statements.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Why do you continue to fight about this.

Fact: you had a good point.

Fact: you gave no real explanation to your point and just kept re iterating that they don’t have emotions.

This is now 4 pages of a useless thread. No intelligent conversation going on here. Although there is intelligent facts behind the argument it should have been presented in a different way then just definitive statements.

What was unclear about that statement?

 

[JoXie411]

No, we get it, have from the beginning. Just don’t share your concern.

As we don’t share yours so like @GoodKarma19 said can’t we put it to bed

 

[Lennoncham]

Were talking about biology here, pure, real world science. A chams brain completely lacks an amygdala and limbic system, both of which are required for higher brain functions, specifically emotions

This was post #28. If you would of presented this information in your original post maybe people would of understood what you were saying from the beginning. Instead you just kept saying they don’t have emotions and making the thread get worse. I had to read a bunch of articles to figure out what you were saying. Just saying chams dont have emotions explains nothing to anyone who doesn’t know how the brain works like myself.

I like to stir the pot.

This is all you were doing the whole thread.


These are the types of threads that have made all the real experts leave this site. When I first came here there would be long intelligent conversations where people would present evidence to back up what they said. Now it is basically another Facebook group. I have forgot half of the valid info I have learned from reading threads like this.

 

[snitz427]

This was post #28. If you would of presented this information in your original post maybe people would of understood what you were saying from the beginning. Instead you just kept saying they don’t have emotions and making the thread get worse. I had to read a bunch of articles to figure out what you were saying. Just saying chams dont have emotions explains nothing to anyone who doesn’t know how the brain works like myself.



This is all you were doing the whole thread.


These are the types of threads that have made all the real experts leave this site. When I first came here there would be long intelligent conversations where people would present evidence to back up what they said. Now it is basically another Facebook group. I have forgot half of the valid info I have learned from reading threads like this.

i think @KobaOregonherper came in with intelligent, scientific discussion, which makes absolute sense... but I am in a profession where definitions are the law. I’m not saying that applies here, but I think that is a big part of the other side of the argument. So while I totally understand that chameleons cannot process “feelings” the way we do, nuerologically, I still understand and agree with the argument that they can express emotions. Because by the definitions, they do.

Again, i understand and don’t discredit the science behind the statement / explanation... but I think when we hear they don’t have emotions we hear that they don’t feel fear, anxiety, etc. (Love and trust are not emotions.) I get it, but I think this is what people are hearing, as if our little guys are mindless bug destroying robots, where as we understand it, they are expressing “emotions.”

 

[Brodybreaux25]

This was post #28. If you would of presented this information in your original post maybe people would of understood what you were saying from the beginning. Instead you just kept saying they don’t have emotions and making the thread get worse. I had to read a bunch of articles to figure out what you were saying. Just saying chams dont have emotions explains nothing to anyone who doesn’t know how the brain works like myself.



This is all you were doing the whole thread.


These are the types of threads that have made all the real experts leave this site. When I first came here there would be long intelligent conversations where people would present evidence to back up what they said. Now it is basically another Facebook group. I have forgot half of the valid info I have learned from reading threads like this.

Then why not just ask me to explain like you have done 1000 times in the past? How many times have you come to me for help in the past?