Interesting…to spay or not spay females…what do you think?

[kinyonga]

“We should NOT be spaying chameleons with follicular atresia, at least not always ”…


Atresia…the degeneration of those ovarian follicles which do not ovulate during the menstrual cycle.
Atresia…The degeneration and resorption of one or more ovarian follicles before a state of maturity has been reached.

Atresia and follicular stasis are different..
Follicular stasis: pre-ovulatory stasis occurs when follicles fail to ovulate and become progressively larger.

 

[ehdee6]

Has there been any studies on spraying a Cham, even if it were a healthy one? If it benefits other animals, why not chams too?

 

[kinyonga]

I don’t know of any studies on spaying chameleon.

Quite a few people have had them spayed, not to prevent the eggs but to prevent them from dying from follicular stasis and dystocia (egg binding). Not all vets are experienced enough to do a spaying successfully and not all chameleons are taken to the vets in time to do it before the chameleon is too far gone to survive it…in those cases.

There have been some studies to try to determine why follicular stasis and dystocia occur in veiled chameleon, but there are no real conclusions to why so far..at least as far as I know. I played a small part in a couple of the studies. I’m not a vet but I’ve had quite a lot of years of experience with chameleons and other reptiles.

With the veiled chameleons, it seems that diet and temperature and husbandry issues play a big part in it. If we do things “right”, they won’t have these issues as a rule.

 

[DocZ]

Has there been any studies on spraying a Cham, even if it were a healthy one? If it benefits other animals, why not chams too?

I would wonder what the morbidity and mortality for the procedure is. I haven’t found any data on this yet and I’m guessing there isn’t much available, but I would guess it’s too high to recommend preventative sterilization
These animals aren’t that common, and I would guess most surgeons don’t have enough experience to be truly proficient in the procedure which leads to worse outcomes
So the next question is what is the overall incidence of follicular stasis? Is it prevalent enough to justify the surgical risk
I don’t know the answers to any of those questions, but it would be important to answer these questions

 

[jannb]

My vet in the Florida Keys did this surgery successfully, often. Over the years 7 of my girls were spayed. Only one had a problem, my Parsonii girl. Her eggs were all fused together so there was no other option. She made it through the surgery but would never eat on her own. After about two weeks she would lock her jaws and it was about impossible to get food in her. One morning we found her passed away. Now I live in Mexico and my exotic vet here also successfully preforms this surgery.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...have-surgery-today.195164/page-2#post-1827797

 

[DocZ]

https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com...3175f5e055e5a030106&rr=98c89fea5b16a68b&cc=us

This article doesn’t have mortality statistics, but mentions preventative ovary removal in solitary female lizards. This doc obviously has extensive experience with Chams, but I am still skeptical of the idea
Proper care (which all you awesome people are promoting) should be more affective than preventative surgery in my opinion (which has absolutely no scientific basis, but seems right )

Cool article @kinyonga

 

[kinyonga]

You asked…”what is the overall incidence of follicular stasis?”…this gives a bit of information…but personally I think it is much higher in veiled females…and I’ve only seen one case of follicular atresia in my very limited experience with reproductive issues that was seen in another person’s veiled chameleon at a veterinarian’s facility.
“A survey of various facilities, encompassing nearly 1600 reptiles revealed that dystocia occurred in approximately 10 percent of the total reptile population”…
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0016648010002303

 

[DocZ]

“It is proposed that this may be related to physiological adaptation to adverse environmental conditions for breeding and that husbandry factors in captivity are primarily responsible for the progression from a physiological to pathological process.“

This makes a lot of sense. Wild Chams have been observed to have anvovulatory periods in periods of poor environmental conditions to breed
My first impression is that this emphasizes that much of the captive problem seen with distocia are occurring because of poor environmental conditions and therefore poor reproduction of natural conditions

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”Proper care (which all you awesome people are promoting) should be more affective than preventative surgery in my opinion (which has absolutely no scientific basis, but seems right”…after that study was done, I posted on here about how I cared for my veileds and that most of them lived for 7 or so years the way I kept them…and many people have followed what I said concerning diet, temperature, etc. and the results are starting to come in showing that they can do well if the husbandry is right.

 

[kinyonga]

“It is proposed that this may be related to physiological adaptation to adverse environmental conditions for breeding and that husbandry factors in captivity are primarily responsible for the progression from a physiological to pathological process.“

This makes a lot of sense. Wild Chams have been observed to have anvovulatory periods in periods of poor environmental conditions to breed
My first impression is that this emphasizes that much of the captive problem seen with distocia are occurring because of poor environmental conditions and therefore poor reproduction of natural conditions

One of the reasons I started the diet, etc was because of documentaries I had watched about many (mostly African) animals would not produce litters in a bad year (poor food, water supply, etc) so I wanted to try it out to an extent that my chameleons would not be starving or suffering but had a “lean” year…and it worked with the veileds (the only species I really tried it on) ..and I could even stop the egg production completely with them…and they almost always lived to be at least 6+ years old.

I also wondered what part leptin was playing in it, if any…because many of the veileds that developed follicular stasis and/or dystocia, develop MBD first. I couldn’t get any of the vets to follow up on this (although I know one who was studying leptin).

 

[DocZ]

I posted on here about how I cared for my veileds and that most of them lived for 7 or so years the way I kept them…and many people have followed what I said concerning diet, temperature, etc. and the results are starting to come in showing that they can do well if the husbandry is right.

That is actually very encouraging. I would guess you took healthy Chams with a surgical problem to an experienced vet for surgery, and then took optimal care of them during recovery
My suspicion is many people end up taking a less than properly cared for animal to a possibly less experienced surgeon and gave less than optimal care during recovery
You, @kinyonga are not an average keeper

 

[kinyonga]

You said…”I would guess you took healthy Chams with a surgical problem to an experienced vet for surgery, and then took optimal care of them during recovery”…not exactly. I only had one of my own die from what I thought was egg binding…but I was never sure…too hard to explain.
I did take chameleons to the vets every time they had other issues though, of course.

I had one that produced what my vet and I called yolkeria (no such word)…basically yolks with no shells. We figured that her shelling gland had been damaged when she was attacked by a male when being mated…and we didn’t know if there even was a real shelling gland in chameleons at that point. Lots of learning by hook or by crook for us back then. He was one of the vets “supervising” in that study.

 

[DocZ]

I also wondered what part leptin was playing in it, if any…because many of the veileds that developed follicular stasis and/or dystocia, develop MBD first. I couldn’t get any of the vets to follow up on this (although I know one who was studying leptin).

I didn’t know anything about leptin until you mentioned it honestly (and still know very little about it ), but that is a very interesting question

My recollection would say that ovulating females would have greatly increased calcium requirements and should be have increased supplementation and could easily become calcium deficient during ovulation

 

[kinyonga]

I played a minor part in a couple of other studies along the way too. 2 of the chameleons in the original CANV study were mine….and the parsoni donated several samples of blood and the fungus.

 

[kinyonga]

I didn’t know anything about leptin until you mentioned it honestly (and still know very little about it ), but that is a very interesting question

My recollection would say that ovulating females would have greatly increased calcium requirements and should be have increased supplementation and could easily become calcium deficient during ovulation

I’m sure the lack of calcium had something to do with the development of the MBD when the FS and dystocia were occurring.

 

[kinyonga]

Leptin plays a part is a lot of “things” such as obesity, reproductive and immune systems, etc. in many creatures, including humans. I’m amazed at how much it is involved with the body systems.

 

[DocZ]

Leptin plays a part is a lot of “things” such as obesity, reproductive and immune systems, etc. in many creatures, including humans. I’m amazed at how much it is involved with the body systems.

That’s what I was reading too. Homeostasis is such a complicated, amazing process

 

[kinyonga]

That’s what I was reading too. Homeostasis is such a complicated, amazing process

For sure…and interesting and amazing!

 

[kinyonga]

Have you spayed any chameleons?

 

[DocZ]

Have you spayed any chameleons?

No I never had any that required it fortunately
All of my female Chams were trioceros