Imported Quad / The survivor

OldChamKeeper

Chameleon Enthusiast
I've been asked to post about my experience in dealing with imported chameleons over the years. Specifically the recent Quad import. I've been told apparently (who knows) that I have the only surviving female from the 1st import sent to the west coast. Honestly I'd rather stay in my cave after seeing some of the posts lately from 6 month experts on the forums. Nobody is listening and old mistakes are just being made.

Despite my personal feelings I'll give it a try, once.


In Dec I went in on the 1st large Quad import. Room being limited I only picked up one female. When I went out to see the animals sent to us on the west coast I got to see Bill's set up at his home (Dragon Strand). I was quite impressed. His set ups were top notch. He was well prepared for a bunch of imports. Despite that it clear to me at least one animal was at death's door. No amount of prep work can overcome a near death import.


I saw Bill had the short end of the stick as well as having is hands full. I asked which female was the best. He showed it to me. Then I surprised him by asking him for the second best since he needed the best one to off set the one at death's door in my opinion. The second best was really the second best upon inspection. She looked "ok" for an import and home we went.

So how did I know "she looked ok for an import"? That's the first part of learning how to work with imports and the first part of this lecture.

I had over the years of working in the pet industry the unpleasant experience of going directly to my reptile wholesalers and seeing first hand how many animals in a shipment would be in bad shape or "not suitable for sale". If anybody tells you as an importer all their animals are great upon arrival then something is very out of the norm. During these years of seeing multiple imported chameleons I didn't just walk in and buy a few for the pet stores I managed and just walk out. I would look at the animals, compare them, get some hands on experience with some of the visual cues for the differences between stressed animals and really sick ones. How can a person do that??? Well the only practical way and it's not 100% is to simply make sure the animal is alone and not within sight of other chameleons. After about 15 mins alone most chams will relax enough and show you their non stressed colors. Most species have a color/pattern that will tell you they are not feeling well. After I could see that then I'd select animals that had decent body weight and eyes that were not sunken while also looking for serious issues in the limbs, mouth, tail and toes.

Again, nothing is perfect with an import but these are things things I do when looking at chams and did while at Bill's house. He had one goner for sure and none of the females were a sure thing. His males were in better shape at a glance. All that said, I took my chances and took the second best female home.


At home, I do things contrary to what many other keepers do. Hence keeping to myself since I don't need any aggravation from other people.

1st - no huge cages. I have a nice 18"x18"x18" cube cage set up with plastic plants. Easy to clean. Plenty of cover. Imports need a huge amount of cover so they can relax. It's not on display and I only need to check on it once a day anyway, might as well just let it relax with so much cover it looks like I went insane and caged a plastic bush for a pet. It would be a cheaper pet now that I think on it. :rolleyes:

2nd - All imports are dehydrated. Period. Keep that in mind in all things you do for the first two weeks. Feeding. Meds. You name it. I mix Gatoraid 50/50 with water in my drips. The animals get two drips a day for 30 mins a pop. There is also a mister set up with 5 mistings a day for 1-3 mins a pop. They get the gator aid mix for about a week.

3rd - Temps. This is going to sound contrary to #2. However it works for me and has for decades. I have observed that Montane chams are not quite as delicate as some people think. When any species of reptile is sick you up the temps a tad and keep the temps stable. I keep my Quads at 82F and considering all the water they get I have not had to worry about about blowing out kidneys or that stuff. Night temps only drop to about 76F and for a sick Montane animal those ranges are solid.

4th - Sunlight! I have noticed a huge amount of differences between the imported animal and my CBB quads. My CBB animals don't tend to bask when I put them outside for a few days. The import just gets out there and suns herself. Imports I have noticed over the years always sun themselves for a bit. We all know the benefits of this, after about 14 days of relaxing with a caged plastic bush and getting hydrated I put my imports outside for 12 hours of sunlight, at my home the sunning cages get sunlight for 4 hours in the morning so I'll leave them outside for three days straight weather permitting. Imports need that, the artificial lighting doesn't cut it for them at first, or maybe ever, but they really need it for the first few months after importation.

5th - Meds! There is NOT a single import out there that will ever come in to the country without hitchhikers. Internal parasites! External parasites! Internal parasites that work their way outside to become external parasites! Parasites! :eek: Moar Parasites!!!! :confused: They're everywhere!!!!

So WTH do you do? Treat the animal and kill it because it's an import? Let me tell you the second option, don't treat it and you kill it 100% of the time. In this case, Bill went above and beyond and took a bunch of fecal samples in to Dr. Greek asap. I commend that. I recommend that. However I didn't need that because I already know I have to treat the animal for parasites. I gave my animal two days to relax, hide with the plastic caged bush, drink, fed her only gut loaded items (don't give an import dusted items for the first few weeks), then I put a dab of Panacur on one cricket and watched her eat it. Write down the date. Do it again in 10 days.

Now what WAS helpful from the results of the fecal was seeing that this shipment had an ungodly heavy parasite load. What does that mean? Does it help knowing that? I'm new to this hobby so what does it matter if it had a light load or a heavy one? You just said all imports have hitchhikers so who cares how bad the load is?

It means the difference between you having to keep a close eye out for a crash in a 20-45 day window or the animal most likely not needing much help from you as you acclimate it.

Since I knew the load was heavy, seen the 20-45 day window in the past, I warned folks about it. I think I was speaking a foreign language.

Around day 35 which was mid January for me the crash started. It was about a week after the third dose of Panacur. The female had been doing fine, gained a couple grams, was eating every other day, drinking daily, colors were "ok" one day and then the next day the colors went to a pale green with a little tinge of yellow/green. She wasn't feeling good. She might as well just have held up a handwritten sign saying "my tummy hurts".

Now I will not pretend to know exactly what is wrong at this point. I have been told by educated people the animal may be suffering from toxins due to the dead parasite load. Others an infection from dead parasites. Either way I have always fallen back on the same two things: Hydrate with a gator aid mix and give them a general antibiotic. I'm not saying this will work for you the reader, I am sharing what I do which, based on my experience, I am capable of doing. I have over the years had very very good luck with this. My real point is not to tell you how to handle the "crash" but instead to make you aware of it and to catch it when it comes. You don't have three or four days to screw with it. You have about 48 hrs on average I'd say to deal with it.


After a week of being on an antibiotic and having the gator aid mix she pulled up. She was looking rough on the second day of the crash with her colors being sickly and she went off feed for three days. Day four she ate a little, then day five she roared back and ate a stupid amount of food like around 7 food items over the day. By day 8 she was fine.


Feb 20 was the 65 day mark for her here with me. As of this date she has had 4 doses of Panacur at 10 day intervals and is off the stuff. I will take a fecal in when she hits the 90 day mark in March.

Also this March it will be one year since my male Quad, Emperor Ming, came down with a bone infection in his jaw common to his species. He has been on meds for that entire time, gained weight, and overall doing well. Keeping a chameleon alive long term is not easy when it's healthy let alone one that is sick and on meds and it is not an easy feat but it can be done with time, patience, a good reptile vet, and no small amount of personal experience. If any of those factors are lacking then the chances of the animal making it go down.

Best advice: Buy Captive Bred chameleons. Support those who have the skill and time and money to breed these neat animals so we don't need imported animals often. :cool:

Attached is a picture of the imported female as of last week.
 

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Thanks for stepping out to share, knowing that some will ignore, some will debate, and some will try a few of your time-proven methods. I have never felt wild-caught was a good choice for the casual chameleon keeper, and at best is a challenge to those who are experienced enough to give the chameleons a fighting chance.

CHEERS!

Nick:D
 
I am still so thankful for all you had told me, all the advice, and you were dead on on the 20 - 45 day mark, when you told me that, I marked on my sheets when they would hit those days -it was as if they could read it too- day 38 is when the small male took his "crash" - just as you said to watch for- he came out of it in time- but I was glad you gave me the heads up - with your help, tweaking my care for the quads I think is what got trooper thew his ordeal - and this was my first time with a large amount of wc - I get the "I got this at a show, now its not eating" chams quite often into the rescue, but only one or 2 at most at a time - I am glad there are people like you to help people like me :) THANK YOU :D
your little girl looks so nice.
I wish I had the sun year round - I agree 100% and have seen it , there is nothing like the real sun to make them feel better, but in :(HIO it just got done being 35 BELOW 0 - no sun for my guys yet :cool:
thank you for posting all your GREAT info :D
 
Honestly I'd rather stay in my cave after seeing some of the posts lately from 6 month experts on the forums. Nobody is listening and old mistakes are just being made.

Let me tell you the second option, don't treat it and you kill it 100% of the time. In this case, Bill went above and beyond and took a bunch of fecal samples in to Dr. Greek asap. I commend that. I recommend that. However I didn't need that because I already know I have to treat the animal for parasites. I gave my animal two days to relax, hide with the plastic caged bush, drink, fed her only gut loaded items (don't give an import dusted items for the first few weeks), then I put a dab of Panacur on one cricket and watched her eat it. Write down the date. Do it again in 10 days.
.

I hesitated earlier to make any other comment than to simply thank you for sharing your experiences. I really do appreciate that. That should be what the forum is about, sharing experiences and trying to help others, experienced or not.

I don't think it's productive, kind or helpful to speak poorly about someone because they might not follow your advise. I also think you are undervaluing your advise when you say that nobody is listening. For people to listen and see value in your advise is not the same as someone following your advise. I think most of us realize that. Different methods have worked for different people. Who isn't aware that some were once so bold as to make statements like, "You should never keep any species of chameleon in glass enclosures, period!"? I'm glad people like Chris and many others have advanced beyond that way of thinking by trying things that go against what is the conventional way of doing things. Even in your post, you mentioned about how you've done things against common practice. I applaud you for that. I can't argue against what has worked for you. :)

Before you interpret the things I'm saying as being negative towards you, let me say upfront that I agree with a lot of things in your post. However, when you wrote, "...don't treat it and you kill it 100% of the time", I don't agree with that statement. I think it would have better to simply say, "In my experience, when I didn't treat, the animal died 100% of the time from the parasites."

In my experience, I had many quads from previous imports, especially back in the 90s, that I didn't treat at all, even with Panacur, though I did with these quads based on what Bill found. Those quads lived for many, many years and reproduced, despite me not treating them.

Would I recommend someone not treat? Absolutely not. In fact, given what people have seen with the December shipment, and given how safe fenbendazole generally is when the chameleon is hydrated well, I would generally recommend treating with panacur as soon as possible, especially if someone can't get a fecal done right away.

However, if a fecal can be done first, I would prefer to find out exactly what parasites are present before I treat at all. Not only would I be armed with the knowledge of what parasites the chameleon has, but I would also know how heavy the load is. Both of those pieces of knowledge would be very helpful in determining how to treat.

I noticed you didn't mention treating with any other medications. Did you, Bill, or anyone else that obtained quads from the CA shipment treat for other parasites, either using the "shotgun" approach or testing first? I'm curious what the fecals that Bill had done might have showed besides nematodes. Any flagellates that you aware of? How about coccidea?

It seems that importers used to more commonly treat with metronidazole in addition to fenbendazole. Today, when the shotgun approach is used, it seems that flagyl isn't used as often. I don't know that to be the case, but it just seems that way when I've asked different importers what medications they used on their recent imports.

And Ralph, please don't hesitate to share your experiences. People are listening, despite what you might think. :D

Perry
 
Ralph, if i didn't know you so well I might think you had taken a pict of a cb female.:eek: Knowing you that would never happen and you are phenomenal with what you can do with chams. I worried for months that every time I ask I would be told Ming was dead. Talk about a fighter.

Since my imports did not come into my house it was pretty much out of my hands. But I will be saving your post, and I personally, will be following it to the letter. Where do you get 18" cubes? And do you use any special kind of plastic plants?

I am so happy to be friends with you, you are a proverbial fountain of information, and cheerleader to keep me going. Thanks more than I can say.
 
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I have to agree as well; people are listening - and wanting to make positive results with any of their own wild caughts that they may be working with. I definitely could have used this "time checklist" to help track progress, or in my case - decline, whenever I was working with a bacterial infected female verrucosus last summer.
 
I have to agree as well; people are listening - and wanting to make positive results with any of their own wild caughts that they may be working with. I definitely could have used this "time checklist" to help track progress, or in my case - decline, whenever I was working with a bacterial infected female verrucosus last summer.

What sort of bacterial infection? How did you deal with it?
 
Great thread Ralph,
I can't tell you just how valuable it has been for me to have a knowledgable and accessible person to bounce ideas around with in dealing with this quad import.
Even when I was sure I was doing the right thing, it's always nice to get affirmation from someone whose opinion I respect. And if we didn't agree, more than half the time I did what you suggested.
Thanks!
 
Thanks for the info Ralph. Very interesting. The female looks like she is doing great now.

I noticed you didn't mention treating with any other medications. Did you, Bill, or anyone else that obtained quads from the CA shipment treat for other parasites, either using the "shotgun" approach or testing first? I'm curious what the fecals that Bill had done might have showed besides nematodes. Any flagellates that you aware of? How about coccidea?

Perry,
I did a fecal on my male as soon as I got him and the only thing found were roundworms. I treated with panacur twice.
 
What sort of bacterial infection? How did you deal with it?

At first I thought that it was upper respiratory, but then decided against it. Either way her sinuses where clogged, and so were her eyes with fluid. I treated with Baytril for three days on and then off for three weeks before repeating. This process was only administered twice.
 
Ralph, as stated before, thanks so much for sharing with all of us. Just wanted you to know there are some listening who value your experience also. Good thread.
 
Ralph, what general antibiotic do you use?

Last time I offered that advice I got blasted. However I also don't care. I have thick skin like a sungazer and I have my cave I can go back to anytime I like. It's comfortable.

I'm just relating what worked for me and I add it might not work for you. I use tri-methyl-sufate (TMS). In the years I used it along side Baytril and Ivomectrin(sp) among others types of meds while managing pet stores and handling the medications (yes, unlike some stores we actually did take care of the animals above profits) I found it "gentler" on the animals. No studies to back this up, no degree as a vet, I'm just sharing my perspective and methods.

I go light on it, if the animal is eating I put a drop on the food item. If not then the appropriate amount (by weight of the animal) of medication mixed with a little water and down the throat it goes. If the animal doesn't improve in two days I go to the vet for the next step up. If it does improve I keep it up for ten days.

I kept a Parson's on Baytril and the TMS for two years. he did far better on the TMS and I kept him on that for most of that time after the Baytril left him looking like death warmed over.

Most here know Baytril. Great stuff. But it can be a little hard on the animal, especially the appetite. I don't see the same issues with the TMS is what I'm sharing. I'm sure there are times the Baytril is the right way to go, but with a fresh import I always go with TMS if I see the crash coming.
 
Thanks Ralph. When you wrote trimethyl sulfate, I'm assume your are referring to trimethoprim-sulfa (sometimes called trimethoprim-sulfadiazine). Is that right? I've read a little about its use in dogs but will have to search for articles about its use in reptiles.
 
Trimethoprim was used for quite a few chameleons back in my early days of keeping chameleons with good results. I believe it also kills coccidian which is an added benefit sometimes. Baytil is also a good medication for chameleons IMHO. The one that gave me the most trouble was amikacin.
 
I keep them away with sharp sticks unless they are bringing food.

:D:D Love this!

Believe me, I am listening! What I hear from your great post is not so much an exacting recipe for success with a particular import, but the end result of a thoughtful experienced "eye", careful judgement, thinking outside the box, and dedication. At some point in most people's history with their chosen animals they start questioning the rote-memorized litany of husbandry and start thinking for themselves about problems that come up over and over again. These people left the "care sheet" approach behind a long time ago.

While the good care sheet works for many pet owners I think all of us realize its not perfect. There will always be exceptions, there will always be variations in the animals themselves, everyone's setup situations will never be identical. How do you think husbandry advances without those outside of the box thinkers? Sure there will be knee-jerk reactions to ideas that don't conform, but so what? If the idea works and there's evidence for it, great. If not, something else will replace it eventually. I've been in the hobby long enough to remember a few of these startling breakthroughs such as the realization that montane species tend to be more sensitive to fat soluable vitamins and that no species should be getting multivitamins or D3 daily, that Baytril isn't the miracle drug in all situations, there was no contagious "melleri virus" that would kill other species housed in the same room, that you can house chams in fairly enclosed situations if done carefully, and the grand old chestnut that chameleons can't be kept alive in captivity.

I really enjoyed reading your account about your quads and thank you for sharing it.
 
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