If there were new CITES species quotas?

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I can't believe they even have a small quota for brookesia minima, how would someone even kind those in a viv!

That surprised me too. However it is probably going to be similar to keeping baby Rieppeleon brevicaudatus. I think academically it is going to be good for some classrooms or science labs to have access and examples of some of the smallest vertebrates in the world, along with have access to the largest chameleon in the world Calumma parsonii.

 

[qdude46]

I imagine it will take a little while though for anyone to find out the exact science of their husbandry.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I imagine it will take a little while though for anyone to find out the exact science of their husbandry.

It is not just Brookesia minima there are a couple other extremely small Brookesia on that list. Brookesia peyrierasi and thieli are extremely small species from that genus as well. There are a couple other species on that list that I think are just as small too.

 

[DGray]

For people buying chameleons from Madagascar, Cameroon, Tanzania or anywhere else. I highly recommend making a contribution to conservation efforts in the area where your chameleons come from even if it is once a year or for the holidays. Instead of buying that extra Panther Chameleon you have not got room for on the holidays send some of that money to a conservation program to make certain those chameleons you prize are going to have a home in the wild for many generation in the future. Those contribution can go along ways in these developing nations.

Kind Regards
Jeremy A. Rich

This is such a good thing in so many ways; let's show the larger world that this group of keepers can support conservation!

Thanks for reminding again. Got me off my proverbial butt to do it!

 

[Mike Fisher]

Jurgen

I am antiquated with the fact that most of these chameleon species are considered as some of the most difficult species to breed. I am ready for that challenge.

Me too. If only I could afford them.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Me too. If only I could afford them.

What are you talking about Mike? You have got a steady job? Sorry wrong spell check (antiquated in not acquainted).

 

[Mike Fisher]

What are you talking about Mike? You have got a steady job? Sorry wrong spell check (antiquated in not acquainted).

No, I don't have a steady job, I'm self employed. Every time I think I have disposable income, I end up investing back into my businesses.

 

[fluxlizard]

It is not just Brookesia minima there are a couple other extremely small Brookesia on that list. Brookesia peyrierasi and thieli are extremely small species from that genus as well. There are a couple other species on that list that I think are just as small too.

What does size have to do with it? I don't understand the point?

I bred one of the small species back in the day and I'm pretty sure it was thieli- but I don't remember any longer for sure which it was- I googled for pics just now to try and refresh my memory, and came up with a thread from this forums- so I guess I wasn't the only one. I'm pretty sure thieli were the ones- if not they were extremely similar in appearance. It wasn't difficult- my setup was similar to the one in the thread and the eggs were left in the terrarium to hatch on their own. I used an old aquarium tank though...

I'm not sure how size equates to difficulty, except that very tiny food must be used.

On the other hand I had terrible luck with perarmata and I remember those being as large as some "normal" small species of livebearing chameleons...

The thread-
https://www.chameleonforums.com/my-brookesia-thieli-84077/

Edit- looking at those pics again, maybe my tank was a little different setup- I used soil substrate and leaf litter and some twigs, but not so many. The little guys were hard to spot in the tank- blended in really well.

 

[nick barta]

No, I don't have a steady job, I'm self employed. Every time I think I have disposable income, I end up investing back into my businesses.

Ah, Mike, we have a common bond, I too own my own business..isn't it wonderful that we can work whatever hours we want, and nobody can tell US what to do?

Oh the JOY of it all.

Liviv' the dream with you, my friend!

Nick

 

[coldbloodedAL]

Ah, Mike, we have a common bond, I too own my own business..isn't it wonderful that we can work whatever hours we want, and nobody can tell US what to do?

Oh the JOY of it all.

Liviv' the dream with you, my friend!

Nick

Ahh I envy you both! Time is all I need, and yet I have the least of it! I could expand greatly but a 60+hr a week job keeps me minimal for the moment.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

No, I don't have a steady job, I'm self employed. Every time I think I have disposable income, I end up investing back into my businesses.

My regards. I am actually almost done figuring my way out of a similar situation. Best of luck resolving that issue.

What does size have to do with it? I don't understand the point?

I bred one of the small species back in the day and I'm pretty sure it was thieli- but I don't remember any longer for sure which it was- I googled for pics just now to try and refresh my memory, and came up with a thread from this forums- so I guess I wasn't the only one. I'm pretty sure thieli were the ones- if not they were extremely similar in appearance. It wasn't difficult- my setup was similar to the one in the thread and the eggs were left in the terrarium to hatch on their own. I used an old aquarium tank though...

I'm not sure how size equates to difficulty, except that very tiny food must be used.

On the other hand I had terrible luck with perarmata and I remember those being as large as some "normal" small species of livebearing chameleons...

The thread-
https://www.chameleonforums.com/my-brookesia-thieli-84077/

Edit- looking at those pics again, maybe my tank was a little different setup- I used soil substrate and leaf litter and some twigs, but not so many. The little guys were hard to spot in the tank- blended in really well.

Some of these species are some of the smallest vertebrates on the planet. I think the difficultly is not with housing or watering them. It would be locating a food source that is small enough that they could eat. If I recall correctly fruit flies are to big for some of these species to hunt and make a meal out of.

Jeremy A. Rich

 

[CarlC]

Some of these species are some of the smallest vertebrates on the planet. I think the difficultly is not with housing or watering them. It would be locating a food source that is small enough that they could eat. If I recall correctly fruit flies are to big for some of these species to hunt and make a meal out of.
Jeremy A. Rich

Springtails, aphids, and termites worked well. The problem I always had was being able to keep a steady supply of food.

Carl

 

[fluxlizard]

Springtails, aphids, and termites worked well. The problem I always had was being able to keep a steady supply of food.

Yes and adult thieli at least could eat ff and pinheads and baby mealies. I also used a lot of "leaf litter" bugs. Just go to a wooded area, collect a bunch of leaves- lots of tiny tiny insects hatch from the leaves. Even in winter time- just bring them idoors and warm them up and the tiny insects hatch out.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

Springtails, aphids, and termites worked well. The problem I always had was being able to keep a steady supply of food.

Carl

Yes and adult thieli at least could eat ff and pinheads and baby mealies. I also used a lot of "leaf litter" bugs. Just go to a wooded area, collect a bunch of leaves- lots of tiny tiny insects hatch from the leaves. Even in winter time- just bring them idoors and warm them up and the tiny insects hatch out.

Brookesia is a genus of chameleons I have never worked with and kept. They were more my brothers deal. However it was my understanding that Brookesia minima could not even eat any of these species of feeders. Someone should buy a couple pairs and check if they can. Adult Brookesia minima and peyrierasi can barely fit on top of a match. Here's an adult Brookesia minima on top of a finger. I think my statements are accurate. I am not overly fond of using wild caught insects as a main food source.

 

[CarlC]

I can only speak about minima but males will eat springtails and a small aphid I was collecting from rose bush's. The rose bush's were like 10 years old and had not been treated with anything. Females gladly ate the above plus termites, fruit flies and pin heads. Its been a long time but I remember the eggs being about the size of a tic tac.

Carl

 

[fluxlizard]

eggs being about the size of a tic tac

That's how I remember theili also.

Oddly- I remember campani having eggs that size as well, so I'm not sure if my memory is messed up.

I'm pretty sure feeding theili was not so difficult.

I never kept minima- sounds like they kept you busy finding food.

 

[Chris Anderson]

After some research and communication with other CSG members, I have been able to confirm that the quotas levels for these new species were based on the IUCN Red List assessment levels. Fortunately these assessments are pretty recent and include a lot of information on geographic range and population levels, which would be necessary to assess risk to the species'. A set of species were proposed for quotas (although I've not been able to determine how this list was come up with) and species assessed by the IUCN Red List as Critically Endangered or Endangered were given a 0 quota, Vulnerable species were given a 50-250 quota, Near Threatened species were given a 300 quota, and Least Concern species were given a 500-3000 quota. These are just the quotas for this year and can be adjusted in the future pending any further assessments.

Regarding the current discussion on feeding species like Brookesia minima, its important in general to remember that while these species may not have been successfully established in captivity long term when they were imported before, there is still a lot of information available from when they were that will be important for new keepers to reference, lest they risk repeating the same mistakes over again. In the case of B. minima and similar species, there are husbandry articles, particularly in German, that are 30+ years old and much of their information is still extremely relevant. Like Carl, having personally kept B. minima, I can attest to the fact that springtails, aphids and small fruit flies are reasonable feeders for adults. This is also echoed in published articles on them (ex: Schmidt & Simon, 1988), with notes that even the offspring can be fed young aphids and springtails.

Chris

 

[Eric Adrignola]

This is great news. I remember being young and self-interested, upset that they were closing things down. Now, I'm happy. Not just because we might see more new blood in the hobby, but the fact that populations in the wild can sustain it.

I've never been much interested in the Madagascar species. Still, it's nice to see things change for the better.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Ahh I envy you both! Time is all I need, and yet I have the least of it! I could expand greatly but a 60+hr a week job keeps me minimal for the moment.

LOL. Most self employed work more than that, I know I do. I think that is what Nick was alluding to, "living the dream".

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I can only speak about minima but males will eat springtails and a small aphid I was collecting from rose bush's. The rose bush's were like 10 years old and had not been treated with anything. Females gladly ate the above plus termites, fruit flies and pin heads. Its been a long time but I remember the eggs being about the size of a tic tac.

Carl

Thanks for the clarification.

After some research and communication with other CSG members, I have been able to confirm that the quotas levels for these new species were based on the IUCN Red List assessment levels. Fortunately these assessments are pretty recent and include a lot of information on geographic range and population levels, which would be necessary to assess risk to the species'. A set of species were proposed for quotas (although I've not been able to determine how this list was come up with) and species assessed by the IUCN Red List as Critically Endangered or Endangered were given a 0 quota, Vulnerable species were given a 50-250 quota, Near Threatened species were given a 300 quota, and Least Concern species were given a 500-3000 quota. These are just the quotas for this year and can be adjusted in the future pending any further assessments.

Regarding the current discussion on feeding species like Brookesia minima, its important in general to remember that while these species may not have been successfully established in captivity long term when they were imported before, there is still a lot of information available from when they were that will be important for new keepers to reference, lest they risk repeating the same mistakes over again. In the case of B. minima and similar species, there are husbandry articles, particularly in German, that are 30+ years old and much of their information is still extremely relevant. Like Carl, having personally kept B. minima, I can attest to the fact that springtails, aphids and small fruit flies are reasonable feeders for adults. This is also echoed in published articles on them (ex: Schmidt & Simon, 1988), with notes that even the offspring can be fed young aphids and springtails.

Chris

Thanks for the clarification on both topics.

Kind Regards
Jeremy A. Rich