How Common Is MBD & How To Avoid?

[rcutchens]

After a considerable amount of reading about MBD here at CF I'm even more concerned about it because it seems that even some of the most experienced owners have had chams that developed some form of MBD; even when seemingly doing everything right. This left me with more questions on the subject.

1. After reading about it it made me wonder how common MBD really is? I know that's a difficult question to answer because it's not really easy to quantify but, from owners that have raised a lot of chams, perhaps you can comment on your experiences in terms of whether or not you've had chams with MBD issues and if you feel it is pretty common.

2. Regarding supplementation, is there a way to get an idea of the amounts of calcium, D3 and vitamin A and the ratios for a chameleon without blood tests?

3. Any additional advice on ways to help minimize the chances of MBD?

 

[Olimpia]

Well, while someone much more knowledgable than I contributes, I will add in my 2 cents. Correct lighting is such an important factor in keeping MBD at bay, and nothing beats natural sunshine. Unfortuantely, now that it's getting cold sunshine is hard to get, but if it's above 50*F you can take them out for an hour or so of light every day and they will benefit greatly. My roommate had two desert iguanas that were supplemented properly and everything, but the idiot hadn't gotten them a UV bulb! Just a plant grow light from Lowes! And within a couple months one of the iguanas developed MBD and a severely snaking spine. And even despite all this, the other iguana never developed any problems in the same time, so it shows you that some reptiles are more susseptable to MBD than perhaps others are, just like anything else.

With a correct gutloading diet, varied diet of insects, supplements, correct lighting, and doses of healthy sunshine are the ingredients you need to help prevent MBD and keep your cham healthy.

I don't know how common it is, though, and nor do I know how to measure healthy levels of supplements in their bodies without a bloodtest. All I know is that if you're supplementing TOO much the excess with come out of their nose, so you know to cut it down.

 

[Obama the cham]

awesome POST! olimpia, thanx for the knowledge.

 

[pssh]

You can let your chameleon bite your arm or test the casque to see how flexible it is. It gives you a pretty good idea of the strength in their bones. If the jaws and/or casque is rather flexible as opposed to stiff, there's a problem.

Supplements don't matter unless you are gutloading well. Greens: dandelions, collards, kale, mustard greens, endive, escarole, turnip greens, etc. Veggies: squash, carrots, sweet potatoes, yams, etc. Fruits: raspberry, orange, apple, papaya, etc.

Check the cahos ratio of the veggies/greens/fruit, then if they have a lot of oxalates. High oxalates=not often, Low oxalates=more often. Generally the Calcium should be higher than the phos for a good gutload. Then take into consideration other vitamins. Use your best judgement after a little research.

 

[Obama the cham]

pssh, how do ya test the casque?? just a lil nudge on the top or wat?? i would like to test obama, just to see. he looks VERY healthy, just curious if im doin good or not

 

[Hoj]

ya lots of good info there im new so always good to have thanks

 

[pssh]

The casque is generally for veileds as you and move them from side to side.

 

[Obama the cham]

well i lose. no veiled here.

 

[kinyonga]

If you do a search on this forum you will find out that MBD is a big problem in chameleons. There are lots of things that can contribute to it...most of which stem from husbandry.

Overfeeding constantly, imbalance of nutrients, lack of proper UVB, inappropriate temperatures, etc. can all be factors in it.

Even if you give it direct sunlight its not going to guarantee that your chameleon won't develop it because it also depends on how much calcium, phosphorous and vitamin A your chameleon gets....and the overfeeding and improper temperatures IMHO can still figure in here.

I don't know how to tell you if you have a balance or not just by looking at what you are doing. Maybe someone has a definite answer? I can tell you that I haven't had a case of MBD in a veiled or panther or many other species of chameleons and other reptiles for many many years...so I must have some kind of a balance in what I'm doing. All I can tell you is that somehow you need to reach a balance.

If you give it sunlight you need to have a balance with that taken into consideration IMHO....so you need to adjust your supplements, etc. to go along with it. If you only give it UVB but give it different supplements than someone else, if you gutload differently than others do, if you use different UVB lighting than someone else...all these things figure into the balance IMHO....so each person using different things will have to reach their own balance. Its something everyone has to figure out for themselves.

Temperatures play a part because they affect digestion and thus indirectly nutrient absorption.

I do know that once or twice I've read a ratio of A/D/Calcium...but you still have to add up what you are giving the chameleon IMHO in the supplements, insects, etc. to get it right.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Amanda1801]

My little dude had x-rays to confirm his MBD - he had very poor bones! I've included photos of his x-rays below. You can see on his legs especially, that he barely has any bones, he also has a lot of fractures and his organs are move visible than his bones.

He was very easy to x-ray (sat still, no sedation required) and gives a good idea of how strong the bones are (obviously a correlation with calcium) and he's going back for more x-rays in January to see how hes getting on

Broken legs: http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...02872069_100000150017800_638642_4903911_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...99542926_100000150017800_638444_2855091_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...59542890_100000150017800_638449_7307303_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos...52876254_100000150017800_638445_7055391_n.jpg

 

[sandrachameleon]

Hi

I agree with much of the advice already provided.

In terms of how to avoid this problem, you may find reading through some of these links helpful (the more you know, the better off your chameleon will be):

about MBD
http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2008/0...olic-bone.html
http://www.tracyhicks.com/MBD.htm
http://www.anapsid.org/mbd.html
http://www.anapsid.org/mbd2.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/supplementation-mbd-1-a-2451/

things you need to understand to avoid MBD
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/215-oxalic-acid-content-vegetables.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...sphorus-ratios-common-good-gutload-foods.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/nutritional-information/

 

[Amanda1801]

Theres also a sticky thread on this forum at the top about MBD - not sure if anyone else has mentioned that its there

 

[Dirtydan]

Hi I have a baby veiled and he's almost 3 months old. Will the powersun bulb give him the uvb he needs? And how often should I give him calcium with d3

 

[jannb]

Hi I have a baby veiled and he's almost 3 months old. Will the powersun bulb give him the uvb he needs? And how often should I give him calcium with d3

Welcome to the forums. Yes, the power sun will give him UVB but I do not recommend them for babies nor for cage use. They are to powerful of a bulb and by the time you get them close enough to get the UVB they are to hot to use. I have used them on large free ranges. Your veiled needs calcium with d3 twice a month if he does not get any outside time. He will also need calcium without d3 at about every feeding and a multivitiam twice a month. This is from my blog.

The feeders have to be "lightly" dusted with 2 kinds of supplements. When your chameleon is young you will use plain calcium (no d3) at just about every feeding...... if you skip one or two days a month that's ok. You will also need Reptivite with d3 twice a month. You can see pictures and buy these supplements here: http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/...-and-vitamins/

An adult male chameleon will not need nearly as much supplements. If your Cham gets allot of outside time and you feed a large variety of well gutloaded feeders, he may not need any calcium or D3 at all, just a multivitamin without D3.

This is my blog for new keepers. Hope you find it useful. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html

 

[JoeVet]

MBD or nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP) is the most common problems with lizards of any kind. I have seen lizards, not chameleons, that were nothing but jelly because they had no bones left.

Vitamin D is required in order to absorb calcium from the diet. It can come from a vitamin D supplement or normal production in the skin by UVB radiation. Generally both a balance between UVB source and a vitamin source are needed.

Probably the biggest reason it occurs in the chameleon is that insect diets are calcium deficient and high in phosphorus. The vitamin D binds to gut epitheluim and complexes with both calcium and phosphous. If the dietary calcium is too low then the vitamin D will will absorb the phosporus. That is why a calcium supplement is required.

Most believe that chameleons cannot convert beta carotene into vitamin A and a pre-formed vitamin A is required. Vitamin A is important for healthy bones. However, too much vitamin A has been linked to bone loss. This can complicate your supplementation.

Over supplementation of vitamin D and calcium can lead to calcification of arteries and kidney failure so its important to find the best balance for your animal. When dusting your crickets they should have a light dusting but not look like ghosts.

The best way to check on the health of the animal is periodic visits to the vet who if any good will recommend complete blood work and an x-ray. The x-ray is the best method to evaluate the bones. The blood work will look for other parameters of health.

For the hobbyist its best to learn as much as possible and get advice from experienced keepers with proven records but beware, everyone with a chameleon thinks they are an expert. Good advice is hard to find. Your animal should be alert and active and eating well. Learn to use a UVB meter, hydrometers and thermometers.

Signs of metabolic bone disease are swollen/deformed limbs or jaws, soft bones, broken bones, paralysis, seizure and death. MBD is a slow process that can take months to years to get to a point where the animal is noticably sick. Similarly treating it will also take months.

 

[Dirtydan]

Welcome to the forums. Yes, the power sun will give him UVB but I do not recommend them for babies nor for cage use. They are to powerful of a bulb and by the time you get them close enough to get the UVB they are to hot to use. I have used them on large free ranges. Your veiled needs calcium with d3 twice a month if he does not get any outside time. He will also need calcium without d3 at about every feeding and a multivitiam twice a month. This is from my blog.

The feeders have to be "lightly" dusted with 2 kinds of supplements. When your chameleon is young you will use plain calcium (no d3) at just about every feeding...... if you skip one or two days a month that's ok. You will also need Reptivite with d3 twice a month. You can see pictures and buy these supplements here: http://lllreptile.com/store/catalog/...-and-vitamins/

An adult male chameleon will not need nearly as much supplements. If your Cham gets allot of outside time and you feed a large variety of well gutloaded feeders, he may not need any calcium or D3 at all, just a multivitamin without D3.

This is my blog for new keepers. Hope you find it useful. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html

I'm going to be giving him some outside time very soon. He's already well tame and loves to adventure. But how long should his outside sessions be?

 

[jannb]

I'm going to be giving him some outside time very soon. He's already well tame and loves to adventure. But how long should his outside sessions be?

Where do you live? If it's not to hot and he has a nice shady area and a safe cage for outside, he should be able to stay out most of the day. Here in FL it's hot so my guys go out a few hours in the morning and a couple more in the evening. You need a nice heavy cage that want blow over and strong covering, screen not recommended because wildlife can get through screen.

 

[Dirtydan]

I live in CA and it's not too hot