Help...veiled's health declining quickly and inexplicably

celinann

celinann

New Member
In the past few days my male veiled (about 2 yrs old) has suddenly seemed really weak and is having a really hard time moving around. It almost seems like how I've heard MBD being described...hanging off the branches and grasping at his own legs and body with his feet.
Recently I moved back home from my dorm where he was doing okay...though he had some edema for the past few months I took him to the vet and we did some antibiotic treatments and though the edema didn't go away he didn't seem to be getting any worse. When I brought him home I set up his cage outside so he could be in the sunlight. The other night I came home and he was sleeping on the floor...something I've never seen him do before. Up until then his grip was strong and he seemed to be fine. The next morning the weak behavior started.
I feed him crickets gutloaded with Mazuri. My vet said she did a study and found that gutloading them with Mazuri is enough calcium and dusting is not needed. I've been giving him some cal+d3 since this started thinking maybe it's a deficiency...now I'm thinking maybe it could be a d3 overdose?? Worst thing I could think of is organ failure of which I've heard edema is a sign. I also suspected maybe he was dehydrated from the heat we've been having so I brought him in a day after I found him on the floor and have been closely monitoring his fluid intake.
He seems really uncomfortable and I want to do what I can for him. If anyone has seen a problem like this before and has any answers I'd be so grateful.

This post seems kind of similar to the problem I'm having. My cham's legs are kind of swollen like that too near the bottom (foot) end, but not at the top and he doesn't have the sort of hernia looking things.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/male-panther-gular-edema-neck-swelling-59420/
 
From the sound of it your guy may have gotten overheated. I think you are correct on that. I don't know any specific treatment except keep him very well hydrated. Please let me know how he is doing.
 
What "Mazuri" food are you using as gutload? From what I can see there are different foods for different animals and some are quite low in calcium.
 
from the pdf i just read. if you are feeding your crickets mazuri... it could very well been the source of your edema all along. it has animal protein in it.

the bad thing about some products labeled for "reptiles" isnt safe for "all" reptiles. this is one thing that i believe needs to be changed and put on labels. instead of making a broad term of "reptiles". making it more species specific per product. yes more expensive for a company but alan rapashy did it!

your vet is full of his own edit: poopie!
 
I think it for the cricket diet. Its made for crickets and "increases the calcium level Of the gutfilled; This helps balanc the calcium to phosphorus ratio of th cricket when they are consumed by animal" to quote to description of Mazuri hi-ca cricket diet.

If you think it sounds like not a good product or what you think about it from your reading ( or anyones experience with it) please explain because i am thinking about ordering it.
 
Treyton: just read the words fish meal in the ingredients. that is enough for me to say no. gutload your crickets with fresh veggies and fruits. also read sandra's blogs on gutload. you have so many options other than this particular one. go with one many on here use and trust.
 
I'm excited about that guinea pig food...I have 2 and it looks good.

However, I don't know if I agree that the calcium in the Mazuri Cricket Feed is high enough. It's between 8 and 9 percent (and that's much higher than their feed for other animals) but the very fact that dusting the feeders with calcium is SOP suggests a fairly high amount of calcium is required.

I do not, however, think the presence of animal protein means the feed is bad or leads to edema. Many if not most insects in the wild consume animal protein. It's what they are on the planet to do.

Here's a question: are the crickets black or brown?

My cricket supplier told me that the way to keep the black crickets from biting me and killing each other was to up their protein intake. They need substantially more protein than the browns. Without it, they resort to cannibalism. I wonder if that affects their chemical balance as feeders? Do they, perhaps, provide too much protein for chameleons to process easily? I'm just tossing that out there for thought.
 
 
I use brown crickets only. I'm not convinced the Mazuri is the source of the edema because the edema started BEFORE I bought it (that's why I visited the vet and when she suggested I use it).
 
Ataraxia, the vet recommended feeding it to the crickets 12 hours before giving them to my cham. I don't know if that would make a difference?
Either way, I'm still not sure of any course of action to take. Does anyone have an idea what would be a best bet?
 
If the edema started before you started using Mazuri what were you using in the way of supplements (be specific) and how often for each then??
What UVB light are you using and does it have any glass or plastic between it and the chameleon?

Can you please post some photos of him the way he is now?
 
The good news is he seems better today. Walking more normally and such.
To answer your question, I had him for about six or seven months before the edema started. The whole time I was using calcium plus d3 every feeding before I found out that that was a bad thing. Once the edema started I stopped the calcium because I figured it was oversupplementation and took him to the vet. His calcium levels came back fine but they said he was slightly dehydrated and had some kind of infection as shown in his increased white cell level. We started him on antibiotics (I forget the name...something complicated starting with a C) injected every three days and though the edema didn't go away he wasn't really getting any worse. A while later I noticed some blood and something hard coming out of his vent (which I now know was a sperm plug; the blood was probably due to straining) so we put him on another antibiotic, this time oral, and a stool softener to help with the straining. Again, there wasn't really any noticeable difference but he didn't get worse. A while after though, I noticed him becoming a little lethargic, resting on a wider branch, but didn't think too much of it. This went on until I came home three weeks ago and it was about a week ago that I found him on the floor of his cage. Since the first vet visit I was relying on the Mazuri for the calcium like the doc said and just occasionally giving him the cal+d3. Like I said, he seems to be moving better today, but still is generally relying on his front legs...I'm afraid he may have broken a back leg in the fall...? I'm not sure. I'll try to get some pics later on today. Thanks for your help and interest.
 
what was your cricket gutload before mazuri and what brand of calcium were you dusting with? normally edema is cause by one of three factors, vitA, animal proteins and or gravid female.
 
First of all I'm not a vet and what I am saying is from my own experience, reading and from what others have told me...so its only my opinion/best guess...you should talk to your vet to make sure I'm right.

According to this site Mazuri has aninmal protein, prEformed vitamin A, D3 and phosphorus...so although it might increase the crickets' calcium to phos. ratio, it might also be part of the problems your chameleon is experiencing since you started using it. It doesn't say what the ratio of vitamin A to D is and those two can be somewhat antagonistic to each other. Also..since you were giving it the calcium/D3 product whenever you dusted you may have been contributing to his edema and bone health in a negative way.
http://www.mazuri.com/PDF/5M38.pdf

Interaction of D3 and vitamin A...and calcium too...
http://www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html

BTW...if the edema is because of kidney problems created from too much D3 being given, I don't know if it will go away. What supplement(s) specifically did you use before the Mazuri?

This also explains supplements for you..,,
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
 
celinann said:
Ataraxia, the vet recommended feeding it to the crickets 12 hours before giving them to my cham. I don't know if that would make a difference?
Either way, I'm still not sure of any course of action to take. Does anyone have an idea what would be a best bet?
Click to expand...

im no vet either :p if your animals were mine i would start simple. every suggestion will take a little time. all suggestions im going to go with the same gut load. kinyonga's post has great gutload. VEGGIES AND FRUITS! discontinue your mazuri.

1)get your cham out in the sun as much as possible. only supplement with phos free calcium. basically you want to try and detox your animal. the body is getting the o.g. source of d3 and will only absorb as much as it needs. no preformed vitA or animal proteins!

2)if your animal has kidney damage or other organ damage that is leadign to this. i suggest you going to a experienced cham vet and getting some blood work along with some xrays to confirm.

3) post pics of your animal. i would like to confirm we are dealing with a male.

this needs to be filled out also.

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.


Cage Info:

Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
Location - Where are you geographically located?
 
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