Help please! Panther threw up this morning.

[pepezkakap]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - blue bar amibilobe panther, male, I can't tell the age and so was the seller. But he's like 5" from head to fecal (excluding tail). I have kept this for roughly 3 weeks. 1 week in seller's small cage and 2 weeks in his new home I made.
Handling - I handled him when I got him twice and once when I moved him. He seemed so affraid of me. He eats well. These past 2 days I have been trying to get him used to me by handling him like couple minutes every morning around 6.30 am.
Feeding - crickets. Been trying super worms but have no luck so far (4-5 days). I am working most days and only ask someone to mist it 3-4x a daily. I throw more or else 8 crickets with average size of an inch. Crickets are bred from wild cought. Gut loaded with lettuce, tomatoes, corn, and mostly high protein made food flakes.
Supplements - Have bought exo terra calcium, calcium + D3, and multi vitamin. I tried giving him calcium only twice all this time and once with D3. Haven't given any multi. The reason is that I saw over feed of vitamin won't be good and I shouldn't give any calcium if he can get direct access to sunlight all time (keeping him outdoor)
Watering - Mist him every morning around 7, 11, 2pm, and 5pm. I mist till the leaves are dropping water. Due to work time I can only spent mostly 1 hour in the morning bonding with him. But I saw him drinking in the morning ( not always ) but I definitely saw him drinking on weekends.
Fecal Description - brown and dark dry to moist fecal and light yellow and white urinate. No vet aroung as it's not a famous career so I thought. No such thing available as fecal test.
History - The seller didn't seem to handle him at all. Small cage. (this is how sellers do business here in my country). But all chams seem healthy.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Custom made screen cage with parabolic screen (strong and anti rust). Standing 3.3' with base 50x50cm (less than 2').
Lighting -No lighting at all as I believe natural sun light will be the best. I live in Indonesia (tropical country with only 2 season). Average temp for entire year is around 22-32 depending on rainy or dry season and depending on the time. The hottest will be noon time on dry season. But now on average 26-28 on day time and 22-25 on night time. I put him under roof without direct basking ( so no chance of over heating). Morning sunlight directly light the cage from side where he can bask and absorb all the required UVB. (this is the reason I didn't dust the cricket although I already bought them lol). Many leaves and shades for hiding id he gets too hot as the bottom part is not accessible to sun light at all.
Temperature -
Humidity - Haven't directly measure it. But hummidity during rainy season here is 50-70%. I keep the soil moist and water it much in the morning, apart from 3-4x misting a day.
Plants - Live ficus benjamina and photos (ivy). Plenty of branches (diagonal, vertical, horizontal).
Placement - Yes high traffic. But many plants to keep him safe and well hidden, direct morning sun light, avoid noon sunlight, and little sun sets light. Different height levels for him to choose.
Location - Jakarta, Indonesia, South East Asia.

Current Problem - After the long description finally I can get down to the problem. Hope all info I provided is sufficient. Forgive my English if it wasn't clear.

This morning (2nd day of handling in the morning) after 3-5 minutes of handling (he seemed still afraid of me and keep walking around my hands, fingers and some times stops for a moment noticing me) I returned him back to his cage. As I did yesterday I didn't just handle him from the top and drop him there but instead I let him chose to get back to the cage by him self. However, today when I placed my hand inside to return him, he seemed reluctant and then stood with his leg (as if he was trying to reach the top screen) then he moved his head around back and forth like dancing, then he opened wide his mouth, made bowing position and put his jaw in my open palm as if he wanted to scoop my open palm. I felt so weird and thought he wanted to bite me or something. Then all of a sudden a brownish black sticky puke came off. He threw it up on my open palm. He then made yawning like move and left my hand as if nothing had happened.

I smelt it but couldn't smell anything funny. I didn't get a chance to break it down. I took a pic of it and left for work. I misted again his cage and he seemed to be drinking. The problem is most mornings now I haven't seen he chomped any cricket. I have been placing a small cup with one or two super worm and he didn't eat it.

I am worried about his vommiting and he doesn't eat in the morning and he doesn't seem to like super worm. If you asked me whether he's eating the crickets I must say yes since I couldn't seem to find the crickets anywhere of 7-8 crickets I throw every morning. Well I saw one or two sometimes late at night. On more thing, the other night I saw a cricket devouring the ficus leave. Could this cricket be eaten by my Brandon? If it is the case will the ficus leave be hazardous?

One thing about him, he is a very shy chameleon. Although he's afraid of me and shy he doesn't go to hiding directly when I come near. Sometimes, he just ignores me when I am taking off yellow leaves, open the cage to see him, or even try to hand feed him he just ignores me. Only once that he actually feeds from my hand. It was an amazing feeling lol.

I appreciate any constructive comments if I made any mistake and possible advise or solution to this vomitting problem. Thanks a lot guys. I post four pics of the puke. Also Brandon 30 minutes after puking. I don't want to be deceived by healthy looking chameleon as I ready many articles saying chameleon good at hidings illness.


Cheers,
Mario.

 

[pepezkakap]

Sorry guys if I haven't posted anything in here. I am really new and recently my account was banned mistakendly thought as spam lol.

I hope I wasn't rude by directly went to help section.

Name is Mario. Male from Indonesia. Used to study my master and work for a year at Missouri, USA. Been wanting to keep Cham since high school but finally got a gut to do so recently.

I have ready so many articles from some people here sandra, janb, top of my head and couldn't recalled so much more experienced Chams lovers. Been researching for few months online about proper husbandry. To be honest even the seller and few chams keepers here may thought am I over reading these articles and over treat this boy as a baby. So I am hoping I am equiped with all the necessary knowledge.

PS: My wife was hesitant at first of me getting Brandon. Now, she seems to like him although rarely watches him.

 

[ibdragons]

I would keep an eye on him to see if he throws up again. Maybe something he ate bothered him and he threw it up . If he does it again you might take him to the vet,good luck

 

[SMCNARY]

He is a fantastic looking boy,Try different types of feeders,he might start to hand feed more often if you find one he likes alot. Meal worms are like cham crack and most chams love them but they should only be fed as a treat and not very often. Watch him and see if he continues to throw up but probably just a fluke. If he does continue note what you have fed him and try another type of feeder. If it continues I would take him to a vet asap

 

[ataraxia]

Puking is not a common occurrence. If your animal was mine i would start with the easiest of the what i would think would be wrong first. That feces is well digested which make me wonder how he would be able to get that back up...but if you saw him puke this. This is what i would personally do for what it is worth.

Since you do not have a good vet around you. I would look into buying a good microscope and supplies to do your own fecal. There are many microscopes out there that have the ability to take pictures so you can post to help identify any baddies.

1. possible parasites
2. possible impaction
3. It is possible something didnt set right with him but i would personally settle for this as a last "put my mind at ease".

Edit: Is he housed outside? At the moment i would not stress him out with handling. Chameleons arent an animal that respond to handling everyday as a positive thing like you would if you were trying to tame a snake or another type of reptile. Chameleons generally at a young age will allow it or not. Some as they grow and with you not pushing the issue of handling. Instead re inforce a positive presence in the example of feeding and slow movements.. They will over time know your not trying to capture them and you are there to bring the thing they want...FOOD! Hand feeding is the best way when time is due to help the animal adjust to you. Be patient and give the young one time.

I have a female veiled that is 3 years old and just recently she has finally taken in that she has no need to fear me. She doesnt run from me when i open the cage, she hand feeds at every feeding and now i can reach in and pick her up without her being defensive. This is a extreme case but patience and time allowed her to become comfortable with me on her own terms.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

In addition to what ataraxia said, inappropriate basking temperatures can cause poor digestion and vomiting. If the temperatures are correct (we can verify if you provide them) then I'd get a fecal done first to check for parasites. That was the cause of one of my cham's vomiting. If that is clear then it's time for more diagnostics such as x-rays and bloodwork to look for other causes (impaction, metabolic problem, etc).

 

[pepezkakap]

He is a fantastic looking boy,Try different types of feeders,he might start to hand feed more often if you find one he likes alot. Meal worms are like cham crack and most chams love them but they should only be fed as a treat and not very often. Watch him and see if he continues to throw up but probably just a fluke. If he does continue note what you have fed him and try another type of feeder. If it continues I would take him to a vet asap

Thanks. He really is! Will mealworm attract him any better than super worm? I held the worm in front of him most tries and it was wiggling but he seemed to just ignore it. But I will try meal worm as a snack.

 

[pepezkakap]

Puking is not a common occurrence. If your animal was mine i would start with the easiest of the what i would think would be wrong first. That feces is well digested which make me wonder how he would be able to get that back up...but if you saw him puke this. This is what i would personally do for what it is worth.

Since you do not have a good vet around you. I would look into buying a good microscope and supplies to do your own fecal. There are many microscopes out there that have the ability to take pictures so you can post to help identify any baddies.

1. possible parasites
2. possible impaction
3. It is possible something didnt set right with him but i would personally settle for this as a last "put my mind at ease".

Edit: Is he housed outside? At the moment i would not stress him out with handling. Chameleons arent an animal that respond to handling everyday as a positive thing like you would if you were trying to tame a snake or another type of reptile. Chameleons generally at a young age will allow it or not. Some as they grow and with you not pushing the issue of handling. Instead re inforce a positive presence in the example of feeding and slow movements.. They will over time know your not trying to capture them and you are there to bring the thing they want...FOOD! Hand feeding is the best way when time is due to help the animal adjust to you. Be patient and give the young one time.

I have a female veiled that is 3 years old and just recently she has finally taken in that she has no need to fear me. She doesnt run from me when i open the cage, she hand feeds at every feeding and now i can reach in and pick her up without her being defensive. This is a extreme case but patience and time allowed her to become comfortable with me on her own terms.

Yes he's housed outside. I will listen to your advise for leaving him alone for this time. Does this have to do with the size of the crickets? Or too much eating perhaps? What can cause impaction? What can cause parasite?
Will watch for him closely and update with anything. I will let you know if I decide to perform fecal test.

In addition to what ataraxia said, inappropriate basking temperatures can cause poor digestion and vomiting. If the temperatures are correct (we can verify if you provide them) then I'd get a fecal done first to check for parasites. That was the cause of one of my cham's vomiting. If that is clear then it's time for more diagnostics such as x-rays and bloodwork to look for other causes (impaction, metabolic problem, etc).

I will perhaps go and buy digital thermometer and hygrometer just to be sure. Most sellers and breeder here don't suggest any basking light or UVB light as the weather and sunlight here is very supportive. These couple of days haven't been really hot maybe 25-26 on day time and 22-24 on night time. But again it's just general temp of the atmosphere. I would go buy the thermo later on. What happen if he doesn't get enough heat? I know lack of UVB leads to lack production of D3 and leads to digestive problem. I don't know about body heat though.. Please inform me further.


How about my theory not to provide him daily calcium, am I doing the right thing? Should I still provide daily calcium? Should I dust light calcium with D3 and multivitamin twice a month?

Thanks a lot for all the responses.

 

[ReptiGeek]

Absolutely buy a thermo/ hygro. Temperatures and humidity are so important for panther chameleons. Seeing as your temps are in Celcius they seems to be fine, however keep in mind he needs a basking location as well as a well shaded area for him to escape the heat. A night time drop in temperature is recommended, so your night time drop isn't too significant. If you think you could move his enclosure inside for a few days I would give it a go (but only if you have a UVB bulb and some form of a basking light, regular house bulb should be fine). As for any parasites, since he is kept outside it's possible he ate a foreign insect that managed to enter his enclosure. Never let your chameleon get at food that you don't know where it has been. To your calcium comment, I would suggest you dust your feeders daily with calcium still. I don't believe D3 as often is required however if you do move him inside, then yes, D3 and MV once every two weeks and calcium every feeding.
Good luck.

 

[pepezkakap]

Absolutely buy a thermo/ hygro. Temperatures and humidity are so important for panther chameleons. Seeing as your temps are in Celcius they seems to be fine, however keep in mind he needs a basking location as well as a well shaded area for him to escape the heat. A night time drop in temperature is recommended, so your night time drop isn't too significant. If you think you could move his enclosure inside for a few days I would give it a go (but only if you have a UVB bulb and some form of a basking light, regular house bulb should be fine). As for any parasites, since he is kept outside it's possible he ate a foreign insect that managed to enter his enclosure. Never let your chameleon get at food that you don't know where it has been. To your calcium comment, I would suggest you dust your feeders daily with calcium still. I don't believe D3 as often is required however if you do move him inside, then yes, D3 and MV once every two weeks and calcium every feeding.
Good luck.

Thanks mate for your comment. I don't believe insects can get through the screen cage unless it's very tiny. It may slip when I open the enclosure for quite some time. You are right, once I saw a honey bee inside it. I took the bee out. I didn't even know how and when did that bee get it. But I will play closer attention from now on. I will also start using that calcium daily. If I still decide to keep him outside do I still have to dust D3 calcium and multi twice a week? I believe temp and humidy are important variables, but it's been proven by successful breeder that successful keeping of cham outdoor in Indonesia is very possible. Nonetheless, I will keep it in mind and will buy this basking and UVB this weekend.
Note: I just talked with couple sellers and they think due to recent drop in temp for past few days it's possible he didn't get enough basking. It's the same as well today. I guess moving him indoor for a while will be the best bet.

Thanks a lot mate.

 

[pepezkakap]

Stupid question guys. Since I am no expert I can't really justify the age of my cham. So he's been with me roughly 3 weeks. He's around 12cm (5") excluding tail. the day I got him he shedded for like 3-4 days. It looked like total shedding but since I didn't monitor the whole day I just saw partial shed.

I was told when Cham's below 6-12 months will shed like weekly if not once ever two weeks. My concern is that I haven't seen him shedding again since that first day. Hope it has nothing to do with the vomitting. Thanks.

 

[SMCNARY]

Thanks. He really is! Will mealworm attract him any better than super worm? I held the worm in front of him most tries and it was wiggling but he seemed to just ignore it. But I will try meal worm as a snack.

Mealworms might attract him better but with the new info I think you should act asap on the advise provided by Ataraxia & Ferret as they both have a lot of knowledge.

 

[cricketkilla]

Do you clean up his feces daily? Maybe he mistook it for a prey item and regurgitated it once he realized that it wasn't lol.. If that's not the case check temps, humidity and get him a basking spot. I would do a fecal as well, just to be on the safe side.

 

[pepezkakap]

Do you clean up his feces daily? Maybe he mistook it for a prey item and regurgitated it once he realized that it wasn't lol.. If that's not the case check temps, humidity and get him a basking spot. I would do a fecal as well, just to be on the safe side.

Yes I do. I spot cleaning his cage and do weekly cleaning. I doub't he mistook it for a prey. He seemed to place the feces almost grouping in the same area.

 

[pepezkakap]

Guys new update here.

The next day he threw up (the next morning) when I tried to hold him I saw that something black sticking out of his anus. I didn't do anything as I thought he hasn't finished defecated yesterday. It happened yesterday morning.
However, this morning when I trying to take him out to do weekly cleaning and changing of newspaper at the base, I still saw that small black thing. I can't help my self then I touched it. I was so shocked to find out that it's was so hard and had rough texture. I assumed it was part of small rock. I tried to pull it out very gently and that black thing was attached with longer yellowish things. I pulled it gently and I saw it coming out of some kind of duct from his anus. No blood at all. I check the texture of that thing, it's like combination of dry keratin from worm. I recalled have been trying to give him that but no luck at all. So I knew it wasn't it.

It really freaked me out and I am convinced that he threw up because can't seem to digest well or defecate all the food out.

Good thing this late afternoon just before his sleep time (dusk time), I spotted his feces. I am little relieved and now I see it my self he managed to defecate. I hope it's a good sign. I will try to take pic of that little long thing if I still have it. Thanks

 

[ataraxia]

If it is not food related black can mean dried blood, which could be another finger to point at to parasites.

Black stool, throwing up = you better get that fecal done asap.

 

[pepezkakap]

If it is not food related black can mean dried blood, which could be another finger to point at to parasites.

Black stool, throwing up = you better get that fecal done asap.

Sorry fo asking but isn't the normal stool color is black with white color at the tip? thanks.

 

[ataraxia]

It could depend on prey but generally feces is brown or dark brown. Black is not typical.

 

[Lovereps]

You can give him more water during the day by adding a dripper.
A dripper can be any clean empty container that you make a pinhole in the bottom of.
As you've been told by others, unless he is not able to digest his food because temperatures are not high enough where he basks, vomiting often is caused by internal parasites.
If left untreated, the cham dies.
Sometimes, very tiny parasitic worms are actually seen in the vomit.
Other parasites can only be seen under a microscope.
There is no home remedy to cure the parasites.
Chams can get them from feeders that have parasites/parasite eggs or from being bitten by insects that transmit parasites or from water that has parasites in it.
Some types of parasites will reinfect your chameleon after treatment if care isn't taken to clean the cage completely to eliminate all the parasites, their eggs and/or larvae.

 

[pepezkakap]

Thanks a lot guys with all the information. All the problems are caused by the wrong temp and he couldn't bask under this outdoor temp currently.

I decided to buy 60watt basking and 5.0 UVB bulb. He's been doing much better. Stool has become brown again. Will keep you guys updated.

Again, I can't stress how fortunate Brandon is to ear all your attention..