Help Please, female veiled sick...

[Fishead]

I worry that perhaps her tongue needs amputation. Did the vets look at her mouth well? I had a female veiled injure her tongue and it needed to be removed, she just couldn't drink or eat with it because it was just injured, swollen, and useless. Hopefully the antiinflamatories do something but it may come to that, unfortunately.

I hope she does better though. She is a really beautiful little female, I hope the best for you and her.

Amputate her tongue? OMG
How did yours get along and live without a tongue?
Yes the Vet examined closely and said she did not see any actual injury, but said possible areas of potential necrosis...but she wasn't sure of it. Kind of gray/puss filled portion of her tongue. I will try and post some pix.
Did yours let it's tongue hang out as I've described?

 

[Elizadolots]

There have been a lot of stories about chameleons who live long lives after losing their tongues. (there have been some horrifying accident stories!) You would definitely have to cup feed her if her tongue is amputated. She would just eat like a regular lizard: go up to the food and grab it with her mouth.

 

[Kate]

I had a veiled who fell asleep with a large locust un her mouth. Unfortunately I didn't notice. It ended up with a large abscess that went from the inside of his mouth to the outside. Surgery was sucessful but he was unable to use his tongue. I had to hydrate him using a syringe and he was very good at opening his mouth to accept a small locust. Once he had recovered he was able to use his tongue but not fully. Hope bungee recovers soon. He is in my thoughts.x

 

[Olimpia]

Amputate her tongue? OMG
How did yours get along and live without a tongue?
Yes the Vet examined closely and said she did not see any actual injury, but said possible areas of potential necrosis...but she wasn't sure of it. Kind of gray/puss filled portion of her tongue. I will try and post some pix.
Did yours let it's tongue hang out as I've described?

She didn't do as well as others have without their tongues but she lived 8-9 months longer. For whatever reason I don't understand yet she managed to swallow her tongue, so until I saw her she was digesting her tongue. I pulled it out of her stomach gently and it would just hang straight down, limp. It was terrible, and the vet immediately agreed that it had to be amputated.

That's why I'm hoping that yours is Ok! I was just sharing a possible outcome that needs to be considered. It doesn't sound as bad as what happened to my poor Charlotte, so that's good.

 

[Fishead]

Poor Bungee!
Here are pix of her tongue today
You can see a dark line dividing area that looks healthier, and part the looks not right. Although I was told not to worry about grossing anyone out...best way I can describe it looks color of phlem when one has a chest cold turned to an infection...very subtle grey/green/yellow...(sick) looking...poor thing.
For most par she is keeping it almost in her mouth, but she has let it hang out like this also. She is weak/feeble and just hanging out at bottom of plant today. I keep wetting her tongue with water...hoping the meds will kick in and see some improvement....
I think I will try the bug puree this afternoon as I'm real concerned she hasn't eaten in close to a week now

Thanks all for your advice, and words of support for this lil gal. I will let y'all know if her condition improves or other outcome...wish her luck...

Best, ><(((*<

 

[Fishead]

This evening I syringed about 2.5 cc fresh cricket puree down her. It went way easier than expected. Thinking god why didn't I do this earlier...? Oh, that's right, the guy at the reptile store said he didn't advise it at all cuz the tongue/throat so delicate I could easily mess it up irreparably.
I hope it helps give her some strength. Tomorrow day 3 on antibiotics...thinking will see at least some improvement if it is going to work yes?
I put remainder of cricket puree in fridge, lol.

Any ideas as to how long it might keep?

Any ideas/recommendations on adding veggies or any other stuff to puree while I'm at this, for next batch? I'm ready to try anything that may help her at this point. As first time cam-care giver I'm also worried bout giving her (wrong) things.

 

[Elizadolots]

I wouldn't try to keep it more than 24 hours....maybe even 12. I don't really know but it seems like it would start to get icky fast....you should be using gutloaded crickets, so adding extra veggies might not be necessary, but I would think you could add a small amount of whatever you normally use for gutload.

 

[Fishead]

Has anyone seen this condition/appearance in tongue?
Witnessed this behavior letting tongue hang out?
Any aware what may have caused it to swell like this if not from injury?

Trying to determine if there is any hope for it healing and returning to normal

Olimpia, what was surgery/healing process like with your Chameleon tongue amputation? Do they stitch it? simply snip it off?...cauterize it? Quick or long time to heal?

 

[jannb]

There are several members on here that have chameleons without a tongue. You might want to start a new thread with the title Tongue Hanging Out and Want Go Back In. If it were me I'd get that girl to a really good chameleon vet ASAP.

Hoping the best to her and to you.

Check out these older threads below.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/freak-accident-need-help-46443/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/back-vet-worst-confirmed-51365/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/camo-doing-well-51547/

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Considering the way it is hanging like that, and for several days, I think the chances of it returning to normal function are virtually slim to none unfortunately. Those muscles are very delicate, and they are most certainly damaged at this point. The original cause may never be known. It could have started as an injury that became a vicious cycle. If she has been on meloxicam and it hasn't helped it is time to consider other options: amputation. If there are areas of necrosis that your vet was able to see this could be a continuing source of infection that is spreading to the rest of the body. Reptiles make very thick pockets of pus so antibiotics do not penetrate them very well for healing.

So it looks like this has been going on at least 2 days now. If the dark area looks like it's spreading at all or she can no longer retract it when she tries then it should probably be amputated sooner rather than later. If things look the same and she is acting okay and getting food and water then maybe give her through the weekend to see if the medication just needs a little time to work if you don't want to jump to amputation. Definitely keep the tongue moist in the meantime. I would prepare yourself for further action though considering how much trouble she's had. Poor thing!

 

[Fishead]

Thanks for the links! Encouraging to read there is life after loosing tongue for a chameleon. Seems so central to their survival, oddly it's a delicate structure...crazy evolution.

I still don't know the cause...or yet if I'm even on path to cure. Time will tell.

First signs were a gradual tapering of her appetite over several. Then she began to appear clumsy while climbing round. I assumed, as she appeared to be fattening up that she was becoming increasingly gravid...so all appeared normal. Last I saw her eat (shooting her tongue out) she pegged some meal-worms out of a bowl drawing back 3-4 in one shot. She kinda half-chewed and then spit them out...I gave bowl a twitch and she zapped another tongue-full and spit out again..think she ate (1) to make me stop.
Then she started poking tip of her tongue out..and within a day her condition plummeted, falling, and quickly became very weak and feeble.
It's been 4 days now in this grave condition...but she's still hanging on...

@ferretinmyshoes - I just read your post as I finished typing here...
I agree, and thank you for your thought and observations. She is able to fully retract it, but is not keeping it in all the way at rest...it is mostly held just protruding out her mouth. I have been wetting it continually, but...I must sleep...and I assume it may be drying partially. I wouldn't think this would directly equate to deep tissue necrosis...but...? Think I am going to give it through the weekend...hoping the (chameleon gut loading) I've started will help give her back a lil strength...and allow the antibiotics a fair chance to help, or not. btw your avatar is hilarious

 

[Mredhorse]

Congrats on the tube feeding... One thing you really have to becareful about when doing It, the food goes into the digestive track and not into the lungs.
Keep up the great job!

 

[Fishead]

Thanks, yes been worried about that...1000 ways to kill them it seems :-\
I've been real careful and patient inserting this 1cc syringe...wait till she opens up and push it long way down her throat when I feel it open..slides in easy. Then, I squeeze and gut-load poor lil Cham.
I pureed crickets, with small bits of kale, carrot, pedialight, and tiny dash of calcium. She's come through 5 feedings and seems to be stabilizing somewhat...meaning she hasn't gotten worse. Ultra weak and feeble still and hanging on ground level mostly,,,falls easily and really doesn't try to climb much...all weak and shaky she soon figures out she can't get far and comes to a halt. Just taking it easy, probably best. She did poop! So feeding is going to the right place

I still can't say for sure the tip of her tongue is healing yet...nor has swelling gone down noticeably (hard to tell with a tongue)...BUT I wanna say it (seems) like it may be getting a bit better...and I'm starting toward being slightly optimistic it will heal. Took her out for some sun time this afternoon, and she did kinda lick my finger a few times and felt a little grab and her pushing with some force each time...so she seems to have some function to it...? Still has sick appearance on small top/forward portion seen in pix. I wanna say (viewed in sunlight) maybe it looks a little healthier, certainly surrounding area and rest of tongue.

She's just so pathetic, looks up at me helpless and trusting. I think its becoming a bonding experience, lol. Meaning, I think she gets somehow that I'm trying to help her with all these varied tortures I'm subjecting her to...and I'm not going to eat her. She's taking it rather well. Seems to dig a lukewarm soak and is totally calm while I pour water over her back.

Plan is take same regime through the weekend...with hope she begins to gain strength with the nourishment she is getting now. And that the antibiotics see her responding by monday...

Oh, I want to clear out her cage and place a low pothos for her to chill out on so she's not falling from any height. QUESTION: Being she is so far from the top of cage and her basking element...should I bring a drafting style lamp (inside) the enclosure and place over to one far side of pothos so she can get to some heat? Will this help her heal and feel more content? I don't see her climbing anything in her condition, let alone the lamp.

Thanks ALL for your advice and support!
><(((*<

 

[Flapenn]

glad to hear she seems to be on an incline in health Hope she pulls through for you. Keep up the good work.

 

[Fishead]

Well, damn....a little rougher day today. Started out ok, but upon returning from sons baseball game...I find Bungee's tongue has swollen more
She's totally bugged by it and keeps trying to swallow/pull it inside but it's too darn big now. She keeps tripping over it and stepping on it with her lil claws. Man it looks so sore

QUESTION:
Do you think it would hurt to give her a second dose of the anti-inflammatory? I gave her 1st approx 7.5 hours ago.
OR...does anyone know ((anything)) I can do to help reduce the swelling...? (that wont kill her of course)
Distressing, watching this lil chameleon struggle so...she's fighting hard, but now I'm in kind of a spot. The Vet is now closed till Monday...which now seems a long way off considering.... :-\

><((((*<

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

QUESTION:
Do you think it would hurt to give her a second dose of the anti-inflammatory? I gave her 1st approx 7.5 hours ago.

Yes it could hurt! Do not give meloxicam more frequently than prescribed as it can (and does) cause kidney damage if given too much or too often. Unfortunately this is the problem of the 'wait and see' method as it is inevitably guaranteed to go worse on weekends when there's nothing you can do. I think at this point your best option is amputation. I highly doubt there is much chance at all of recovering function. Hopefully she can hold on tomorrow until the vet opens on Monday.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Any update on her?

 

[Fishead]

Bungee is still hanging on, she's a fighter and I'm still doing my best to help her any way I can. Tongue swelled up even more over weekend, giving her hell, annoying her...every step she tries to take she trips on it, or catches her lil claws on it. She does seem to be regaining the slightest bit of strength, putting up fuss trying to feed and administer medicine becoming a real effort. As Monday rolled around, swelling had gone down a little and she's able to retract most of her tongue again, but not all.

We returned to Vet Tuesday morning. By this time the swollen tip of her tongue had started to deflate some and area of necrosis beginning to sag a bit. Vet said the prognosis is very dim in these cases, and ruled out any notion of amputation presently due to her compromised energy level. Basically doubted she would survive being anesthetized. Attributed much of her current state to calcium deficiency as root cause. However, she stated she has observed rare cases of real tenacious ones pulling through these things somehow. She said it is possible the tongue may somehow sluff this dead/dieing tissue off and recover whatever semblance of use possible after the fact. I want to say it looks like her body is starting to decide what is still good tissue and what is not on her tongue, and letting the bad stuff go...if that makes sense...meaning, the bad part is looking definitively worse. So I'm thinking perhaps it will deflate, pop or tear open and maybe get on toward healing? Again the emphasis on calcium for muscle contraction being key to getting her back on track.

We discussed possibility of anesthetizing her (I brought it up), but I told her I felt she was really still trying to fight hard and I wanted to give her as much of a chance/help as I could...at least for now, if her condition continues to slide, or takes a dive..I will have to make a choice and perhaps need to help relieve her suffering. As of yet, I can only read from her disposition wants to fight and live and she is looking to me to help her though. (pet owners and their pets voices in their heads to some I know, lol) Advised I was doing all right things, not at all inhumane to give her another week as long as she is somewhat stable (albeit bottomed out) and just wait and see if she can turn the corner here...

Thanks all for help and words of encouragement, sure Bungee appreciates it in her own way

peace and best,
><(((*<

 

[Elizadolots]

I'll keep you and Bungee in my thoughts.

 

[Fishead]

Thank You!