Help: Halfway housing a Jackson's with possible MBD

[norml40]

I am half way housing a beautiful male 3 horned Jackson's chameleon with possible MBD. He came to me with his back legs twisted, and front and back legs/feet swollen. Quite a sad sight. The owner did not want to pay the money put him down, and dumped him on my local Herp society, which I am actively a part of, and one of the only chameleon keepers, so he came to me tonight (Saturday). He had been taken already to a vet by another half way houser, but was not given any testing or firm diagnosis. The vet was also going to put him down, but he is very responsive, so he has been given a chance.
He is going to a special reptile vet on Monday. His color is still a normal light green, he ate for me tonight, three chucks of some food from the vet called Insectivore-Fare and one superworm (the plan recommended by the vet). Got some water in him as well.
He will be going into a reptarium tomorrow, 18x30 size, with a ficus, though the vet is concerned about him trying to climb right now. I have not figured out the best lighting yet.

I would like to see him make it, but have not dealt with this problem before and could use any advise.

 

[pssh]

Best lighting, sun light, it does wonders to sick chams. Best fake UVB is a reptisun 5.0 and a low watt basking bulb so it doesn't get too hot. If you're worried about him falling put a few towels on the bottom. Make sure to dust any bugs with plain phos free calcium without d3. I don't know about the insectavore stuff... Best of luck to you until you get him to the vet!

EDIT: I don't know if it would be a good idea to dust crickets with calcium as jacksons are sensitive to supplementing. So wait for more advice in that area. Sorry.

 

[joshua n janet]

my male cham might have MBD to =(

 

[laurie]

If you have real concerns about your ability to care for this chameleon you are luck enough to be near a chameleon rescue, Chameo.org also you can call Elisa, who runs the place at 818 219-9315. She can pick up the chameleon, or you could take him to her or she can offer expert ideas on care and vets who know chameleons. Good luck. i have taken in several chameleons needing help off this forum and it can be costly and challenging. Great if you can save it, heartbreaking it you can't.

 

[norml40]

Thanks Laurie, but I am actually in WA state now....

 

[kinyonga]

Can you post pictures of him?

 

[SpinyFranky]

If you have real concerns about your ability to care for this chameleon you are luck enough to be near a chameleon rescue, Chameo.org also you can call Elisa, who runs the place at 818 219-9315. She can pick up the chameleon, or you could take him to her or she can offer expert ideas on care and vets who know chameleons. Good luck. i have taken in several chameleons needing help off this forum and it can be costly and challenging. Great if you can save it, heartbreaking it you can't.

Not to steal the thread,

But wow... that place sounds so amazing, and Its only about 25 mins from my house. Yet I have never heard of it.

Will def be looking to help them out.


Hahah... as PSSH said, natural sunlight is a miracle worker for chameleons. (dang pssh, ive been basically quoting you all day.... )

No clue about the busted legs though mate Its a really sad story, one that happens to a lot of animals. Thank god for people like you who actually try to help that which others destroy.

Best of luck to you and the cham. I hope to hear good things from this thread in the coming days/months.

 

[norml40]

Well he threw up the previous vet food and the superworm, so I guess I will try and see if I can find some silk worms or Phoenix worms.

Pics, yeah I will try, but he is a sick boy and I dont want to disturb too much until the rep vet sees him.

 

[norml40]

Update

Well, the news came back bad. The Jacksons is not suffering from MBD as the previous vet thought, blood tests showed a uric acid level of 17...and the Jackson had lumps on its tail and upper crest that were pure uric acid. It is in renal failure/severe gout. He cannot live now without daily medication, and even then, the prospects are short termed, and iffy. Its feet were curled up because it was in so much pain. The rep vet said he has seen this before and after a lengthy discussion over the previous owner's care the rep vet is positive the cause was from vitamin supplementation to live food. Commercial reptile supplements contain high levels of Vitamin A and the previous owner had done his "homework" on the internet and found several sites promoting Jacksons needed daily supplementation. The rep vet has many years experience with chameleons and said that he advises all chameleon owners NOT to supplement live food, and to instead simply use proper gut loading. I had a long talk with Elliott last night at Chameleons Northwest because I also do not regularly supplement my chams live food, but I do use sticky farms supplements from time to time, including for gut loading, a product Elliott also uses and endorses. I have several species that my rep vet said are sensitive to supplements (Oustalets, Mellers, Cameroon 2 Horned Mountain). Apparently, so are Jacksons.

I thought I would share this information with you.

 

[CNorton]

Well, the news came back bad. The Jacksons is not suffering from MBD as the previous vet thought, blood tests showed a uric acid level of 17...and the Jackson had lumps on its tail and upper crest that were pure uric acid. It is in renal failure/severe gout. He cannot live now without daily medication, and even then, the prospects are short termed, and iffy. Its feet were curled up because it was in so much pain. The rep vet said he has seen this before and after a lengthy discussion over the previous owner's care the rep vet is positive the cause was from vitamin supplementation to live food. Commercial reptile supplements contain high levels of Vitamin A and the previous owner had done his "homework" on the internet and found several sites promoting Jacksons needed daily supplementation. The rep vet has many years experience with chameleons and said that he advises all chameleon owners NOT to supplement live food, and to instead simply use proper gut loading. I had a long talk with Elliott last night at Chameleons Northwest because I also do not regularly supplement my chams live food, but I do use sticky farms supplements from time to time, including for gut loading, a product Elliott also uses and endorses. I have several species that my rep vet said are sensitive to supplements (Oustalets, Mellers, Cameroon 2 Horned Mountain). Apparently, so are Jacksons.

I thought I would share this information with you.

I doubt the Gesangs would appreciate you implying that supplementing is a bad thing. However, I do not doubt that a vet would say such a thing as we have all heard wildly incorrect husbandry practices recommended. You did come to the right place though as I would take the advice of a senior member on this forum over any "reptile vet" that may or may not have experience with chameleons.

A light dusting of phosphor-free and no d3 calcium has done wonders for my montanes (the sensitive ones). I hope the very best for the little guy!

 

[laurie]

I doubt the Gesangs would appreciate you implying that supplementing is a bad thing. However, I do not doubt that a vet would say such a thing as we have all heard wildly incorrect husbandry practices recommended. You did come to the right place though as I would take the advice of a senior member on this forum over any "reptile vet" that may or may not have experience with chameleons.

A light dusting of phosphor-free and no d3 calcium has done wonders for my montanes (the sensitive ones). I hope the very best for the little guy!

I have to say I think very highly of Sandy & Elliott, but if you aren't willing to take the advice of a reptile vet you need a new reptile vet!!! I can name several that are past wonderful just from my personal experience, Dr Ivan Alfonso - Orlando FA. Dr Tom Greek - Yorba Linda, CA and Dr. Eric Klopecky - Boseman, MT . I think you should back off on saying "any" reptile vet, some lack experience with chameleons and some are wonderful, unless you know or have reason to say something about I vet you don't know, just keep that crap to your self.

 

[norml40]

Hi Laurie,

Thanks for the response and support. I thought this was important information to share as I am now forced to deal with a dying animal from improper care. I am new (within a year) to chameleon care, but take my pets to my local reptile vet and have gotten nothing but clean bills of health. That, by the way includes Dr. Greek, as I was recently living in Cali.
And actually, if you read the post, I said my vet recommended not dusting, not Elliott, and so you know, my rep does have a Masters degree in reptile biology and has many years experience in Chameleon care.

 

[Carlton]

It seems we are dealing with opinions that are suspect because they are extreme (NO supplementation at all, supplements every day). I doubt anyone (vet, website, etc) can claim they have a complete working knowledge of cham endocrine systems and dietary reactions to the stuff we feed them.

Remember moderation? Sure, the poor jax could be suffering from advanced kidney failure due to oversupplementation especially as the former keeper found such an amazingly bad care page. It could also be carelessness or a misunderstanding of what was meant by "daily" dusting. People commonly overdo supplements because they don't really understand them...if a little is good, more must be better. Or, they skimp on gutloading because it is easier and expect more dusting to make up the difference.

I would be skeptical if a vet told me NEVER to supplement and rely only on gutloading. You'd need a perfect gutload of course and where is this? Think of all the hundreds of chams kept successfully and bred to generations that have gotten light calcium dusting on a regular basis with occasional use of a vitamin dust to round out a good gutloading regime.

 

[norml40]

Hi Carlton,

Thanks for the posting. I guess I posted on here as I am also a Cham owner and would like more information on this. I do dust from time to time with Sticky Tongues products. I had been using commercial calcium without d3 and moved over to sticky farms miner-all from excellent reports that I had read on line. But I only dust maybe one a week. I do gut load with the Sticky Farms vitamins as well as feed my feeders vegetables high in calcium (chard, etc). But seeing the shape this poor animal is in and having the discussion with the vet raised some concerns. By the way, the animal was a few years old, so this did not happen overnight. My vet really strongly recommended no supplements at all for the Mountain species. One of his clients, and long time friends, successfully bred Mountain chameleons for years. I am going to continue this discussion with him. I would also like to find out more what Chameleons Northwest does as their animals look just fantastic.

 

[Carlton]

That sounds reasonable especially for this particular cham. What I don't know is if the cham survives long enough if he may need an occasional calcium dusting in addition to a good gutload (knowing the high phosphorous ratio in our common feeders). What a shame he is in such poor shape! Like you, I go very easy on dusting as I keep montane species mostly. I lost a beautiful cbb fischeri to kidney failure years ago but the necropsy couldn't determine if it was due to oversupplementation only or if there was also disease present. I'm sure there are individual variations sensitivities among chams too.

 

[norml40]

Thanks. I am really trying to collect information for my own knowledge but also because I want to share what I find out with the herp group I am part of. Not many of us keep Chams in the group. You would not believe the shape some of the herps come to us in. For my own animals safety, I will usually not take in sick animals. But I made an exception this time, as it was clear this was likely some kind of husbandry issue, and the animal has been making an effort to survive (i.e. still eating, struggling to stand, etc.) I do not blame the owner, because when I began researching Jacksons online and in the books I have, I came across conflicting information. Some said that with Jacksons, like the Mellers and the Mountains, supplements often kill the animals. Other sources said Jacksons, and all chams kept indoors need frequent supplements.
I do trust my vet. He has pulled me through in the past on several horrible situations from other animals I have kept or taken care of. He only treats exotics.

 

[laurie]

It sounds to me like you are doing just what you should be. You are researching, talking to keepers & working with a good vet, no one could ask fro more - great job.

 

[CNorton]

I realize now that my previous post sounded pretty insensitive and I did not mean to suggest that one vet or another is incompetant. Dr. Greek is indeed a great vet...that has seen my chams as well. I meant to be wary of just any vet. It sounded like a pretty extreme husbandry change to completely stop all supplementing.

...opinions that are suspect because they are extreme (NO supplementation at all, supplements every day). I would be skeptical if a vet told me NEVER to supplement and rely only on gutloading.

I understand how frustrating the information out there can be. Frequently, care pages or sheets can be disseminated without stating the species the care is for. There is huge difference in keeping a Veiled and a Jackson. Anyways, you well know. Laurie is right, you are doing well to do your research and I'm sorry if I was a bit harsh.

 

[norml40]

No worries. There is a terrible lack of information on these guys. I am just trying to find out what people find works best whom have kept chams for longer periods of time then myself. It seems there is a great deal of problems with supplements, just like there is with lighting/UBV products, and caging. I would like to gather together the best info for my own pets, but also because I am now actively involved with my local herp society and would like to be the updated source of information for sick chams when we get them.

 

[xanthoman]

oversupplementation ?

i cant really add much except to ditto most of what already has been said, but being a keeper of jackson's exclusively, i just thought i would add my 2 c worth. first i do tend to echo the sentiment that xanths probably need significantly less supplementation than than many other larger, hardier chams from warmer climates. i dont have concrete evidence, other than it just seems to make common sense. all of my xanths (1.3.3) recieve less supplementation than what is commonly accepted as normal. as a personal opinion i tend to feel that oversupplementation is a common problem , not just with jax , but across the board, posts indicating some sort of over-supplementation are common, yet posts that seem to indicate some sort of under supplementation are rare. you didnt say specifically which sticky tongue product you are using. i am assuming you mean vit-all insect prey gutload. this product seems to have relatively conservative dosages of its vitamin components, but dosage could vary considerably due to the amount of gutload consumed by the prey and the amount of prey consumed by the cham(s). also this product derives its vitamin A from a fat encapsulated beadlet of beta carotene (which seems like something i might favor in principal, but that is a whole nother debate in itself) the problem i have with this product is that you dont hear about it much, and i could be wrong, but, it does not seem to be that widely used in the cham community, [presumably because of its cost (a $100 for 2lbs of gutload seems excessive)] right or wrong, i have often reccomended a reduction , or even ceasation of vitamin supplementation, but i would be wary about discontinuing calcium (no vitamin) supplementation altogether, unless of course there is something to indicate some sort of tissue calcification issues. i think a well balanced (but non vitamin enhanced) gutload is probably a good course of action for the time being, until the actual problem can be better determined. in the meantime, i would get him natural sun at every available opportunity, as long as they are able to bask and there is not too much wind , xanths can handle short term (4hrs or less) temps to 50*, quite readily. you didnt say where in wa you are, but i am in ballard, and cham related contact is always welcome