HELP, CHAMELEON HAS FALLEN....swollen leg

Most vets even though they claim to see reptiles, know absolutely nothing about chameleons.

I have had and will continue to have my fingers crossed for Jack.
 
Many MANY vets with long-term experience with reptiles are prone to such a diagnosis. SO many lizards come in with MBD, it makes sense. If you do not use repcal or mineral (or like product with good amounts of D3), even if you use a UVB bulb, there is a good chance that MBD will set in. If you do not use a UVB bulb, or use a bad one, or use it improperly (too far away), MBD is almost a certainty.

Many many never get proper care, and instances of MBD are the result - vets in the past just gave calcium injections, as good calcium with D3 was not really available.

Many of them are just recently finding out about it(past 5-10 years).

I'm sure his strenght will be regained, now that he's off the rough medicines. I hope so - keep us informed.
 
hello all,

so now its been 6 days and jack is off ponazuril. he's been on calcium for 5 days now, and has shown now improvement. the vet called to check on him, and i said nothing has really changed. how long should this take??

i saw him trying to have a bowel movement the other day, and he was gaping and moving around like it was painful. he ended up doing only a white urate, but i could see "pink" when he was straining, like other stuff was maybe coming out with the poop. it stopped after the urate came out, and he seemed less uncomfortable. but while it was happening, he definately looked unhappy............

any thoughts????????
 
Excessive feeding of soft bodied food may actually lead to constipation and prolapse as a result. Chameleons need some roughage in their diet. We like to think that softer is better, but it's not, really. They will eat locusts in the wild, as well as beetles. All are high in chitin. Chameleons have a limited ability to break the stuff down, too. It's usually much softer going out than when it came in. They probably gain some nutrients in the process.

Liquid calcium (is he getting neocal or an injection??) can cause loose stool as well.
 
I stand corrected. Though as I read it, stools are not loose, rather its constipated?

i saw him trying to have a bowel movement the other day, and he was gaping and moving around like it was painful. he ended up doing only a white urate, but i could see "pink" when he was straining, like other stuff was maybe coming out with the poop. it stopped after the urate came out, and he seemed less uncomfortable. but while it was happening, he definately looked unhappy............
Click to expand...
 
Eric Adrignola said:
Excessive feeding of soft bodied food may actually lead to constipation and prolapse as a result. Chameleons need some roughage in their diet. We like to think that softer is better, but it's not, really. They will eat locusts in the wild, as well as beetles. All are high in chitin. Chameleons have a limited ability to break the stuff down, too. It's usually much softer going out than when it came in. They probably gain some nutrients in the process.

Liquid calcium (is he getting neocal or an injection??) can cause loose stool as well.
Click to expand...

he recieved a shot of calcium at the vets office, and is now on liquid calcium every day for a week ( we're on day 7 now) and twice a week thereafter. his poop hasnt been loose the last few times he's gone. its been more normal. but this time it looked like he was really straining to try and poop. he has been fed only crickets, and the last time he ate any was on tuesday. he ate 6 dusted with reptivite with d3.

is there anything i should be doing? i have been dusting the crickets with the reptivite with d3 whenever he eats them, trying to give him a boost of the vitamins. it also contains calcium. he is getting the liquid calcium twice a week now. is there anything else i can be giving him? he doesnt seem to be getting better, he is still very weak and shaky. falls all the time, prefers not to sit on branches, but sprawl out on the bottom of cage, so as he doesnt have to hold on. he's wasting away on me here..........
 
im very confused for about a month they said he had an infection!? now they are saying mbd? did you get a second opinion, or is the vet going loopy trying to stab in the dark?
 
Docility said:
im very confused for about a month they said he had an infection!? now they are saying mbd? did you get a second opinion, or is the vet going loopy trying to stab in the dark?
Click to expand...

i left the first vet who was suspecting infection........the second opinion is coming from a new vet, and his suggestion is mbd..........
 
I think all the medicating, especially the baytril has had a bad effect. Baytril is a nasty drug, mostly avoided except as a last resort here.

I hope it recovers. Best wishes.
 
Last edited:
well, that explains it. Reptivite is not good as a calcium spllement. I know, it's complicated...

You need a stand alone, calcium with D3 supplement - without any other vitamins. Repcal or minerall are best. Reptivite HAs D3 and calcium, but not in the proper proportions necessary.

Use reptivite once every one or two weeks, and repcal wiht d3 more often.
 
Eric Adrignola said:
well, that explains it. Reptivite is not good as a calcium spllement. I know, it's complicated...

You need a stand alone, calcium with D3 supplement - without any other vitamins. Repcal or minerall are best. Reptivite HAs D3 and calcium, but not in the proper proportions necessary.

Use reptivite once every one or two weeks, and repcal wiht d3 more often.
Click to expand...

hello eric,

it explains what?............did jack get this mbd from not enough calcium? or not enough d3? are they both causes?

before this all started, jack was being supplimented with bone aid.......which is a calcium dust. so im positive there is no lack in calcium in that dept.........i thought that the reptivite would be boosting his d3 levels.........what should i be boosting?..............

more and more this is seeming to not be mbd............. i fear its kidney problems as i suspected earlier........its been about a week since jack started all the calcium, and he's shown no improvement. he perked up a bit after his fluids and a shower, but he's definately not getting better. if i posted pics of him now, you wouldnt know him as the same cham.
 
MBD would be defined from an xray didnt you xray him and have a glowing picture of his skeletal structure? I still think its an auto immune disease created by the fall. i honestly think his body is confused. by normal means the body should move out fluid means of cellular respiration. it all goes through the kidneys. if his xray shows no signs of depleted bone calcium, or rubber bones as i like to call it then i can only say its either metabolic, or auto immune
 
MBD is calcium defecincy. It is not simply caused by a lack of calcium but usually the lack of D3. complex interactions of metabolic importance.

D3 ius needed to absorb calcium. Proper ratio of D3 to vitamin A is needed for it all to "work". too much or too little of either of them can cause MBD, or edema, or other problems.

Most of the swelling (maybe edema) can also be caused by kidney problems. If there is a swelling above the feet that is NOT soft and meaty, but hard - like bone - it's probably gout. That's a kidney problem caused by diet/nutrion usually.

I'm sorry for confusing you about MBD - your vet did say his bones looked good, and th epics I've seen showed no signs of MBD. I'm thinking out loud on the computer...

Reptivite HAS D3, but not really enough to do the job, especially since it has so much more vitamin A. You need about a 1:1 ratio, or greater, of D3 to vitamin A. Just like you need a 2:1 ration of calcium to phosphorus. Many multivitamins have improper ratios - so no matter what they contain, if the ratios are poor, the supplement will likely be harming the animal more than helping.

this is exactly why we reccomend good gutloads and UVB lighting. You need to maintain a proper balance of nutrients, and th eless you add artificially, th ebetter. gutloads and UVB lighting help you reduce the amount of artificial supplementation needed, and therefore keep your "wiggle room" a bit wider when it comes to potential toxic amounts of artificial supplementation.

The swelling of al lfeet made me think gout. The hard bump made it seem even more likely. Keep up hydrating him ,, and probably reduce feedings. He does not need to eat so much righ tnow, if his protein levels are high. overfeeding will potentially lead to this, so I'd start by cuttin ghis food intake.
 
Eric Adrignola said:
MBD is calcium defecincy. It is not simply caused by a lack of calcium but usually the lack of D3. complex interactions of metabolic importance.

D3 ius needed to absorb calcium. Proper ratio of D3 to vitamin A is needed for it all to "work". too much or too little of either of them can cause MBD, or edema, or other problems.

Most of the swelling (maybe edema) can also be caused by kidney problems. If there is a swelling above the feet that is NOT soft and meaty, but hard - like bone - it's probably gout. That's a kidney problem caused by diet/nutrion usually.

I'm sorry for confusing you about MBD - your vet did say his bones looked good, and th epics I've seen showed no signs of MBD. I'm thinking out loud on the computer...

Reptivite HAS D3, but not really enough to do the job, especially since it has so much more vitamin A. You need about a 1:1 ratio, or greater, of D3 to vitamin A. Just like you need a 2:1 ration of calcium to phosphorus. Many multivitamins have improper ratios - so no matter what they contain, if the ratios are poor, the supplement will likely be harming the animal more than helping.

this is exactly why we reccomend good gutloads and UVB lighting. You need to maintain a proper balance of nutrients, and th eless you add artificially, th ebetter. gutloads and UVB lighting help you reduce the amount of artificial supplementation needed, and therefore keep your "wiggle room" a bit wider when it comes to potential toxic amounts of artificial supplementation.

The swelling of al lfeet made me think gout. The hard bump made it seem even more likely. Keep up hydrating him ,, and probably reduce feedings. He does not need to eat so much righ tnow, if his protein levels are high. overfeeding will potentially lead to this, so I'd start by cuttin ghis food intake.
Click to expand...


ok, so if i get a suppliment with just calcium and d3...........how often should he be recieving it? how often should a healthy chameleon be recieving it? so by my count, i need three suppliments for a chameleon? a multivitamin, a calcium supp, and a calcium plus d3 sup???? that seems like a lot of supps, considering less is more.............our last cham had one supp that he used, and he lived totally indoors with a uvb light. i just dont get it ..................keep in mind he is also getting liquid calcium drops twice a week now. so does he need a boost in calcium? or d3??

his first xray was clear, the vet thought it didnt look like mbd. but she medicated the crap out of him. this vet thinks its mbd, and gave him calcium. neither are working, so what am i to do.................
 
this is realy a sad story.
I have been following this thread since the begining and my heart crys for you.

I don't have any sure fire ansers for you, and I have refrained from posting in the past because there are far better people here that can help.
yet at this time I wanted to reply with a few thoughts.



first off, your cham is resting on the bottom if I'm not mistaken.
if you did not already move the UVB light to reach your pet, then try to move it so it can get some D3 into it's system on it's own.
no matter how much calcium you are dosing it with, or suplementing it with, your cham still needs D3 to utilise the calcium.


MBD, gout, who knows. but I don't think you are NOT too far off when thinking the kidneys might be a problem.
I would take Eric's advice and lower the food intake as protien levels might be too high at this time. (wondering if a blood test was done to check uric acid-for gout)
mist, mist, and mist some more...I'm sure you are already doing this, but if not, go crazy with the misting.

suplements....
I use rep-cal calcium w/o D3, rep-cal calcium w/D3, reptivite w/D3, miner-all w/o D3.
yes, that seems like alot. but now I can controle just what is being suplemented on my feeders.
if I used an "all-in-one" suplement, I could be overdosing my cham with D3 or vitamin A, and so on.
for indoor chams, I would use D3 only twice a month as a boost, as the cham should get enough from the UVB bulb.
this means for me, rep-cal w/D3 once or twice a month, and reptivite w/D3 once a month for preformed vit A.
so what is the miner-all for? well I use it twice a month for trace minerals that I feel are needed for bone and muscle growth.

at this time I would hate for you to be over suplenting with D3 as I fear that if the kidneys are already a problem that it could lead to calcification of the kidneys and harden it or shut it down.
yet D3 is important and is needed, so use it maybe once a week for now. then twice a month in the near future.
again, lower the UVB light so it can be utilised as well by your cham.


I do hope that others pic apart what I've said to make sure that you should be doing the above, or maybe not.
but above all, I do hope your cham gets better soon.

your cham is in my prayers,
Harry
 
warpdrive said:
this is realy a sad story.
I have been following this thread since the begining and my heart crys for you.

I don't have any sure fire ansers for you, and I have refrained from posting in the past because there are far better people here that can help.
yet at this time I wanted to reply with a few thoughts.



first off, your cham is resting on the bottom if I'm not mistaken.
if you did not already move the UVB light to reach your pet, then try to move it so it can get some D3 into it's system on it's own.
no matter how much calcium you are dosing it with, or suplementing it with, your cham still needs D3 to utilise the calcium.


MBD, gout, who knows. but I don't think you are NOT too far off when thinking the kidneys might be a problem.
I would take Eric's advice and lower the food intake as protien levels might be too high at this time. (wondering if a blood test was done to check uric acid-for gout)
mist, mist, and mist some more...I'm sure you are already doing this, but if not, go crazy with the misting.

suplements....
I use rep-cal calcium w/o D3, rep-cal calcium w/D3, reptivite w/D3, miner-all w/o D3.
yes, that seems like alot. but now I can controle just what is being suplemented on my feeders.
if I used an "all-in-one" suplement, I could be overdosing my cham with D3 or vitamin A, and so on.
for indoor chams, I would use D3 only twice a month as a boost, as the cham should get enough from the UVB bulb.
this means for me, rep-cal w/D3 once or twice a month, and reptivite w/D3 once a month for preformed vit A.
so what is the miner-all for? well I use it twice a month for trace minerals that I feel are needed for bone and muscle growth.

at this time I would hate for you to be over suplenting with D3 as I fear that if the kidneys are already a problem that it could lead to calcification of the kidneys and harden it or shut it down.
yet D3 is important and is needed, so use it maybe once a week for now. then twice a month in the near future.
again, lower the UVB light so it can be utilised as well by your cham.


I do hope that others pic apart what I've said to make sure that you should be doing the above, or maybe not.
but above all, I do hope your cham gets better soon.

your cham is in my prayers,
Harry
Click to expand...

same here i hope he gets better soon.
 
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