Tygerr
Avid Member
Before you try that, read what Jim Flaherty has to say about oil on this thread: Eating soil
Having some issues
- Thread starter hybrid
- Start date
Enough said on that............
Anyone have a remedie for impacted chams????
I came home and syringed 1cc of water (plain) and soaked her for 20 minutes.
When I got home she was on the cage floor and not really happy. I have since taken a tupperware and filled it with green moss and used that as a bedding for her since she isnt really mobile.
Will be dosing her with the baytril again later before bed for the third day.
I also gave her 1 TINY drop of liquid VITIMIN A from a pill that I pulled the liquid out with a diabetic syringe. She got one single drop of it in her mouth. As per Jim at cham company about giving oral vit A.
(actually he advises that you wet a q-tip and then rub some vit a on it and then in the mouth. I figured the tiny drop out of a diabetic syringe was less invasive and about the same amount.
I havent given up but Id really prefer that I dont have to disect her later on down the road.
keep the suggestions coming, this is how we all learn.
Anyone have a remedie for impacted chams????
I came home and syringed 1cc of water (plain) and soaked her for 20 minutes.
When I got home she was on the cage floor and not really happy. I have since taken a tupperware and filled it with green moss and used that as a bedding for her since she isnt really mobile.
Will be dosing her with the baytril again later before bed for the third day.
I also gave her 1 TINY drop of liquid VITIMIN A from a pill that I pulled the liquid out with a diabetic syringe. She got one single drop of it in her mouth. As per Jim at cham company about giving oral vit A.
(actually he advises that you wet a q-tip and then rub some vit a on it and then in the mouth. I figured the tiny drop out of a diabetic syringe was less invasive and about the same amount.
I havent given up but Id really prefer that I dont have to disect her later on down the road.
keep the suggestions coming, this is how we all learn.
oh and by the way...........
I palpated her again, cant feel any abnormal obstructions ie. eggs or anything.
I dont know what the heck it is but I hope I find out before its to far to recover from.
There was also NO stool today. I figured after nearly 2cc's of baby food cocktail and all this water Id see something...........leaning towards impaction if I dont see anything this weekend (provided she is still alive)
I palpated her again, cant feel any abnormal obstructions ie. eggs or anything.
I dont know what the heck it is but I hope I find out before its to far to recover from.
There was also NO stool today. I figured after nearly 2cc's of baby food cocktail and all this water Id see something...........leaning towards impaction if I dont see anything this weekend (provided she is still alive)
Cherron
New Member
If you think your cham has an impaction.. and you aren't going to take it to the vet.. then why not try the oil? I am not saying it is the best remedy.. but neither is avoiding the vet and your cham dying. Make sure that it is only one drop and that it is in the very back of the throat. Chameleons breath through a hole in the bottom of thier mouth. Let it hiss at you a few times.. you can see the hole. Just be sure to get the oil past the hole and don't use more than a drop.
Or.. let it die. Chameleons may not LIKE a drop of oil in their mouth and they may not LIKE antibiotic injections.. but somethings are necessary.
Or.. let it die. Chameleons may not LIKE a drop of oil in their mouth and they may not LIKE antibiotic injections.. but somethings are necessary.
UPDATE
IMPACTION RULED OUT. As I gave her her dose of baytril this morning (didnt get it last night) I was holding her to kind of warm her up she sat patiently wrapped in my fist for about ten minutes when I felt the poop start flowing.
there seemed to be some cricket material and some baby food material (Im guessing as I smashed it on the paper towel to see its consistancy) some looked "grainy" while some looked more like babyfood consistancy.
There was plenty of water with it and some URATES maked by the yellowish white excrete with the stool.
So at least I know that she can pass stool and has kidney function. I imagine the water is normal or due to me OVER HYDRATING her.
I really hope this is a sign of better things to come.
IMPACTION RULED OUT. As I gave her her dose of baytril this morning (didnt get it last night) I was holding her to kind of warm her up she sat patiently wrapped in my fist for about ten minutes when I felt the poop start flowing.
there seemed to be some cricket material and some baby food material (Im guessing as I smashed it on the paper towel to see its consistancy) some looked "grainy" while some looked more like babyfood consistancy.
There was plenty of water with it and some URATES maked by the yellowish white excrete with the stool.
So at least I know that she can pass stool and has kidney function. I imagine the water is normal or due to me OVER HYDRATING her.
I really hope this is a sign of better things to come.
BTW CHERRON.............
Im not against taking it to a vet but as Ive mentioned at least twice, there are not really any super smart exotic vets near me.
What Im doing is about all a vet would be doing. You guys, the "community" are just as intelligent if not more so than the average vet with chameleons.
There is no reason to dump a few hundred dollars at "guesstimates" when I can do that myself. Id rather save that money to replace the little male that just never came around or him and maybe her.
In any case its a moot point.............she pooped today.
Im not against taking it to a vet but as Ive mentioned at least twice, there are not really any super smart exotic vets near me.
What Im doing is about all a vet would be doing. You guys, the "community" are just as intelligent if not more so than the average vet with chameleons.
There is no reason to dump a few hundred dollars at "guesstimates" when I can do that myself. Id rather save that money to replace the little male that just never came around or him and maybe her.
In any case its a moot point.............she pooped today.
Cherron
New Member
Even a vet who is not "super smart" can run a fecal check, do blood work, prescribe meds, xray, give calcium injections, etc.
But even that being said, I wasn't criticizing you for not taking your cham to the vet. It is your chameleon. Approach the situation how you may. All I was saying was that a chameleon may not like the feel of oil in its mouth (as the other thread said) .. but if you were seriously thinking it was an impaction, and angry cham is better than a dead one.
But even that being said, I wasn't criticizing you for not taking your cham to the vet. It is your chameleon. Approach the situation how you may. All I was saying was that a chameleon may not like the feel of oil in its mouth (as the other thread said) .. but if you were seriously thinking it was an impaction, and angry cham is better than a dead one.
Dave Weldon
Avid Member
Howdy,
I've had success with a 50/50 mix of Pedialyte and water in getting an impacted panther to produce a ~4x dump. It was a friend's critter and it hadn't pooped for weeks. I gave him one or two doses of about 1-2cc's each and it produced the desired effect the next morning. It may have just been a coincidence that it worked so well but this method was recommended by a long-time commercial breeder.
I've had success with a 50/50 mix of Pedialyte and water in getting an impacted panther to produce a ~4x dump. It was a friend's critter and it hadn't pooped for weeks. I gave him one or two doses of about 1-2cc's each and it produced the desired effect the next morning. It may have just been a coincidence that it worked so well but this method was recommended by a long-time commercial breeder.
Jordan
New Member
I cannot believe no one has said anything about MBD. One of the first things people notice with heavier reptiles when they get this is lethargic behavior, lose of appetaite and the inability to lift their rear ends. I would advise you to take your chameleon to vet. They can do an X-ray.
I am not sure what olive oil is going to do for impaction. This is not a rusted bolt on an exhaust manifold. I very seriously doubt it could hold it's viscosity through a digestive tract.
I am not sure what olive oil is going to do for impaction. This is not a rusted bolt on an exhaust manifold. I very seriously doubt it could hold it's viscosity through a digestive tract.
Seeing as I have all my reptiles on one bank of cages and they share all the lights and that I use reptisun 10.0 bulbs in my fixtures AND that I feed my crickets fortified food WITH me adding calcium and vitamin powder to the food.............Im doubting its MBD.
If it was mbd, why would the other two have absolutely no problems at all? My sambava male is nicknamed "Sarge" from the fact that he is constantly in predator mode and is all over his cage and his mate (no name female sambava) is just as active and healthy.
If one of the chams can develop mbd when all the conditions are absolutely identicle..........it has a gene defect.
Cherron
New Member
I did suggest a calcium deficiency.. on the second page. Really.. all anyone can do is guess what is wrong with this cham. And suggest a vet visit.
And oil is commonly to treat impactions and blockages in animals and reptiles. They don't digest it like humans do and it can sometimes help to lube the digestive tract enough to allow the blockage to slip through.
And oil is commonly to treat impactions and blockages in animals and reptiles. They don't digest it like humans do and it can sometimes help to lube the digestive tract enough to allow the blockage to slip through.
Thanks for the tidbit Dave!!!!
If you caught my post this morning I said she dumped a huge poop on the coffee table when I was holding her loosely in my fist this morning.
I felt her perculating and I hovered her over the table and couldnt believe the size of what came out of her. I smashed it into the towel to see the contents and I believe about half was chopped and smashed cricket (very fiberous looking) and the other half was really pudding like consistancy (I assume it was the babyfood cocktail I made) and there was URATES and a fair amount of water involved.
As such, someone mentioned some MBD to which I doubt but I will add calcium to her water mix and maybe some calcium with D3 as I have her in my triage cage which has no uvb lighting (just two 60 watters to keep her warm) and I will continue her treatment schedule of baytril and one drop of micro vitamin a oil in the mouth once a week.
This is a tough case and I appreciate everyone helping BUT PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THE VET THING IS PRETTY MUCH A MOOT POINT.
Two vets that have somewhat of a fair knowledge of reptiles anywhere near me and both of them happen to not be in town. (exotic vet conference or something???? I DUNNO)
The costs associated with traveling way outside of my way, xrays and such are prohibitive when compared to what it costs to replace her.
Ive spent money buying full vials of various vet supplies and Ive spared no expense in setting up her habitat.
Sometimes you have to weigh the costs to the benefits. Im not crude or cruel but there is a limit to how much Ill spend on any animal.
Again, keep the ideas coming.................we know she poops so thats out of it. Lets figure out why she is so weak in the rear.....
Laragail
New Member
there are more creative ways to get her x-rayed then by taking her to the vet,
for example, one time my dad broke his toe (or, rather, i broke his toe)
, and he just happened to have a dentist appointment the next day, so he had the dentist x-ray his toe.
this may not be an option at all, but if you have health insurance and you get 1 or 2 cleanings a year you could just go in for one of those and bring your cham with you?
for example, one time my dad broke his toe (or, rather, i broke his toe)
, and he just happened to have a dentist appointment the next day, so he had the dentist x-ray his toe. this may not be an option at all, but if you have health insurance and you get 1 or 2 cleanings a year you could just go in for one of those and bring your cham with you?
Dave Weldon
Avid Member
Howdy,there are more creative ways to get her x-rayed then by taking her to the vet,
for example, one time my dad broke his toe (or, rather, i broke his toe)
My doctor once said that I was a "loose wingnut" so I went to my mechanic, but he didn't know what to do either
.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Hybrid
Only saw this thread earlier today, and have some recollection of the emails that we traded. I think I read it all, and wanted to add a few things to some possible misconceptions that others who read here might come away with:
1) While your female apparently did not breed, it is our experience that approximately 15% of all virgin panthers will throw an infertile clutch if not bred in their first cycle. So, being gravid has to always be considered a possibility, while not necessarily a likelihood, in such situations. However, your symptoms did not strike me as a gravid female who could not find a place to lay. Healthy females are perfectly capable of throwing the eggs if unable to lay them, all other things being normal. Gravidity also magnifies otherwise less obvious shortcomings in the health of the animal.
2) The entity that keeps pushing the vegetable oil as a laxative has to get a bit more experience or heed the experience of others before they continue to champion the idea any more, or tell you how to make it work. FYI whoever you are, the problem is not getting the oil behind the windpipe. The problem is that chameleons react negatively to oil in varying quantities, to the point of regurgitation and emptying their gut, at times rather violently. Oral baytril never evokes a similar reaction in our experience. It is during the rejection of the oil that inhalation of the oil can occur. I am not speaking from seeing this happen once or twice, but in quantity, where approximately 300 chameleons were subjected to varying levels of oil. My experience is that violent reactions occur approx 20-30% of the time when an adult female panther is dosed with two drops of oil. Less likely with a larger cham or less oil, more likely with a smaller cham or more oil. My estimate is that it is not anywhere near worth the risk, but knock yourself out with your chams if it makes you feel good. When the heck does a chameleon ever swallow oil in the wild? While medicating animals is not natural, anything prescribed by a vet is done after that process has been tested multiple times. I would ask you to take a step back in this forum or any other that you participate in, and stop spreading knowledge which you do not have.
3) It is also my experience that beta carotene, while possibly beneficial in other ways, does not meet the Vitamin A requirements of chameleons. This observation has been made by many others in the last 12 years. We use supplements which contain it, but we also address Vitamin A needs in other ways.
Hybrid, as I believe that I mentioned in our exchange, there are many possibilities as to what ails your chameleon. The advice I gave was in the context of assuming it isn't a husbandry issue, and what would then be the likely suspects in a descending order of sorts. I know that you got that, and have enjoyed reading your posts here. I also understand the logic of your "vet - no vet" decision, and feel that is a decision for any keeper to make regarding their own situation. As to my own logic process on it all, I have a very good and highly accomplished friend who preaches that "every time someone tells me they know a lot about chameleons, the first thing I then ask them is 'how many have you killed?', the truth being that unless they have killed many, they haven't much grasp of what they don't know". While there is more to the philosophy, its basically true.
Only saw this thread earlier today, and have some recollection of the emails that we traded. I think I read it all, and wanted to add a few things to some possible misconceptions that others who read here might come away with:
1) While your female apparently did not breed, it is our experience that approximately 15% of all virgin panthers will throw an infertile clutch if not bred in their first cycle. So, being gravid has to always be considered a possibility, while not necessarily a likelihood, in such situations. However, your symptoms did not strike me as a gravid female who could not find a place to lay. Healthy females are perfectly capable of throwing the eggs if unable to lay them, all other things being normal. Gravidity also magnifies otherwise less obvious shortcomings in the health of the animal.
2) The entity that keeps pushing the vegetable oil as a laxative has to get a bit more experience or heed the experience of others before they continue to champion the idea any more, or tell you how to make it work. FYI whoever you are, the problem is not getting the oil behind the windpipe. The problem is that chameleons react negatively to oil in varying quantities, to the point of regurgitation and emptying their gut, at times rather violently. Oral baytril never evokes a similar reaction in our experience. It is during the rejection of the oil that inhalation of the oil can occur. I am not speaking from seeing this happen once or twice, but in quantity, where approximately 300 chameleons were subjected to varying levels of oil. My experience is that violent reactions occur approx 20-30% of the time when an adult female panther is dosed with two drops of oil. Less likely with a larger cham or less oil, more likely with a smaller cham or more oil. My estimate is that it is not anywhere near worth the risk, but knock yourself out with your chams if it makes you feel good. When the heck does a chameleon ever swallow oil in the wild? While medicating animals is not natural, anything prescribed by a vet is done after that process has been tested multiple times. I would ask you to take a step back in this forum or any other that you participate in, and stop spreading knowledge which you do not have.
3) It is also my experience that beta carotene, while possibly beneficial in other ways, does not meet the Vitamin A requirements of chameleons. This observation has been made by many others in the last 12 years. We use supplements which contain it, but we also address Vitamin A needs in other ways.
Hybrid, as I believe that I mentioned in our exchange, there are many possibilities as to what ails your chameleon. The advice I gave was in the context of assuming it isn't a husbandry issue, and what would then be the likely suspects in a descending order of sorts. I know that you got that, and have enjoyed reading your posts here. I also understand the logic of your "vet - no vet" decision, and feel that is a decision for any keeper to make regarding their own situation. As to my own logic process on it all, I have a very good and highly accomplished friend who preaches that "every time someone tells me they know a lot about chameleons, the first thing I then ask them is 'how many have you killed?', the truth being that unless they have killed many, they haven't much grasp of what they don't know". While there is more to the philosophy, its basically true.
Udated again...........
Female was dosed with the baytril solution every day over the weekend and this morning and was given soaks in warm water for 10 or better minutes every day as well as a minimum of 1cc of water or Water, repti-aid solution and on saturday she was given yet again another batch of the babyfood cocktail.
On pure speculation I have also given her some water with nothing more than the calcium powder "dissolved" into it to help mimic a "liquid calcium" supplement instead of begging and borrowing any from my vet surgeon friend. (yes I have a neighbor who is a vet but specializes in sewing up dogs and cats and knows nothing about exotics)
So here we are on what........day five?
I dont know if any of this will "fix" her or if she will be fixed what it actually took to "fix" her.
List of treatments given
Water via syringe
Babyfood cocktail (chicken puree, water, vitamin powder, calcium powder)
1 micro drop of vitamin a oil out of a diabetic syringe
Repti-aid critical care (pedialyte for chameleons???)
Water and calcium powder
Baytril 2.27% solution mixed in the water treatments once a day in the recommended dosage.
Soaks in warm water for 10+ minutes daily for extra hydration
Dual 60 watt basking bulbs on "medical facility" cage to keep her warm.
What Ive seen in the last few days..........
She does poop.........refer to earlier reply about ginormous poop she laid on the coffee table!!!
She is mainly lethargic about the back legs. Almost like a paralysis condition.
While this may or may not be appropriate I palpate her lower abdomen and along her spinal ridge to maybe allieviate any nerve pinching and I move her back legs around to keep them flexible as well as moving blood thru them
I suspect that if it was a case of egg binding and it damaged her, perhaps she will lay a couple in the container of wet sphagnum moss Ive left for her to fall into when her front half tires.
Short of getting some ether and my x-acto.........there isnt much I can do for her. If she is or was eggbound so much that it damaged her, she definetly will not have any strength or ability to lay them now.
All I can do is hope that the treatments take care of her.
Female was dosed with the baytril solution every day over the weekend and this morning and was given soaks in warm water for 10 or better minutes every day as well as a minimum of 1cc of water or Water, repti-aid solution and on saturday she was given yet again another batch of the babyfood cocktail.
On pure speculation I have also given her some water with nothing more than the calcium powder "dissolved" into it to help mimic a "liquid calcium" supplement instead of begging and borrowing any from my vet surgeon friend. (yes I have a neighbor who is a vet but specializes in sewing up dogs and cats and knows nothing about exotics)
So here we are on what........day five?
I dont know if any of this will "fix" her or if she will be fixed what it actually took to "fix" her.
List of treatments given
Water via syringe
Babyfood cocktail (chicken puree, water, vitamin powder, calcium powder)
1 micro drop of vitamin a oil out of a diabetic syringe
Repti-aid critical care (pedialyte for chameleons???)
Water and calcium powder
Baytril 2.27% solution mixed in the water treatments once a day in the recommended dosage.
Soaks in warm water for 10+ minutes daily for extra hydration
Dual 60 watt basking bulbs on "medical facility" cage to keep her warm.
What Ive seen in the last few days..........
She does poop.........refer to earlier reply about ginormous poop she laid on the coffee table!!!
She is mainly lethargic about the back legs. Almost like a paralysis condition.
While this may or may not be appropriate I palpate her lower abdomen and along her spinal ridge to maybe allieviate any nerve pinching and I move her back legs around to keep them flexible as well as moving blood thru them
I suspect that if it was a case of egg binding and it damaged her, perhaps she will lay a couple in the container of wet sphagnum moss Ive left for her to fall into when her front half tires.
Short of getting some ether and my x-acto.........there isnt much I can do for her. If she is or was eggbound so much that it damaged her, she definetly will not have any strength or ability to lay them now.
All I can do is hope that the treatments take care of her.
Jim,
I appreciate the help you did give me as it was a start for me to be proactive. I still very much believe that this is not a condition of husbandry as my two sambavas are fierce eaters and my male is gigantic.
While I hope to not kill any chameleons I do know however that animals die. I breed dogs as well and last year I have a large litter (9 pups) 3 of which died within the first three weeks. This last litter I had was also 9 and I had to had feed the runt for the first three weeks of life.
You come to accept things as they will be but Ill at least do all I CAN DO for my animals.........within reason.
In all honesty, I think you are very much right in what you said about killing them versus learning. Unfortunately with this type of animal its a very expensive learning process Id like to not go down the road with.
As much as I read, Ive never encountered any information about female PANTHER's needing to have an egg laying area if not bred. If this turns out to be the case, Ive learned a valuable lesson and I hope that it gets put to a good cause like being posted in the general husbandry sections of various forums. Everyone should be very wary of keeping females without this knowledge. It may only effect a small percentage of them but any percentage is enough to heed with caution.
Again, I really appreciate your efforts in helping me at the onset of this problem and I promise all of you to continually update as this progresses. I want everyone to learn at least one thing from it. Good or bad, so long as people dont repeat my mistakes.
lele
Avid Member
just a quick thought, if your friend/neighbor has been following your troubles with your cham, s/he might do a phone consult with a chameleon vet. I would certainly expect to pay them for it, then again your friend/vet may not be comfortable doing this. Another thought, you could do phone consult with a vet. I live in NH and several years ago when I was having trouble with my brevi's I set up a phone consult with a cham "specialist" in FL. He was recommended by a friend who goes to him. Just a thought.
Btw, have you posted a pic of her yet? I may have missed it as I am sort of flying thru these when I have the time to check in.
Best of luck with her.
lele
Sorry the pic is in my phone .............Ill try to get it on the computer.
He has contacted a good friend of his from OH and she specializes in avian and exotics.........
She was also the one that said "Unfortunately with chameleons you either have one walking around eating or it has X's for eyes"
Which is completely true. When specialists tell you that its tough if not down right impossible to treat them quickly and correctly to rememdie the situation you are at a stuck point. Hence my attitude with lesser specialized vets.
When I was going thru my battle with the little guy who died of whatever it was (8 months old and no better than 10 grams) we went thru the gamut of treatments.
Forgive me if I get a name wrong Im not in front of all the stuff
Gentocin (?) to treat his eyes which seemed to be bugging him (it was a topical opthamolic drop)
Pyrantle incase of a worm problem
Metronidizal (dont know what that did........gram neg bac?)
finaly we tried ammacacien and by the time he was due for the next shot he was dead.
I hated it but I tried like crazy to get him moving. He ate (randomly) and drank (regularly) but wouldnt grow for anything.
Im sure the ammacacien did him in but I had it diluted really really weakly so it was the best I could do.
Like I said, Im taking this in stride and I am glad I have the opportunity to pass ideas around with you all and get somethings out in the open.
Dealing with exotic medical situations is like predicting the lottery.
He has contacted a good friend of his from OH and she specializes in avian and exotics.........
She was also the one that said "Unfortunately with chameleons you either have one walking around eating or it has X's for eyes"
Which is completely true. When specialists tell you that its tough if not down right impossible to treat them quickly and correctly to rememdie the situation you are at a stuck point. Hence my attitude with lesser specialized vets.
When I was going thru my battle with the little guy who died of whatever it was (8 months old and no better than 10 grams) we went thru the gamut of treatments.
Forgive me if I get a name wrong Im not in front of all the stuff
Gentocin (?) to treat his eyes which seemed to be bugging him (it was a topical opthamolic drop)
Pyrantle incase of a worm problem
Metronidizal (dont know what that did........gram neg bac?)
finaly we tried ammacacien and by the time he was due for the next shot he was dead.
I hated it but I tried like crazy to get him moving. He ate (randomly) and drank (regularly) but wouldnt grow for anything.
Im sure the ammacacien did him in but I had it diluted really really weakly so it was the best I could do.
Like I said, Im taking this in stride and I am glad I have the opportunity to pass ideas around with you all and get somethings out in the open.
Dealing with exotic medical situations is like predicting the lottery.
Todays update..............
Gave her some repti-aid mixed with some calcium and a dose of baytril.
She was pretty pissed off when I picked her up so I may have inadvertently put water at the wrong time.............ie while hissing. She sounded like I may have gotten a bit in her chest on accident.
I placed her back in the tree upside down so if she needed to hiss something out it would be easier.
That really sucked and I hope I didnt compound the problem. Its tough when you are manualy hydrating them.
Gave her some repti-aid mixed with some calcium and a dose of baytril.
She was pretty pissed off when I picked her up so I may have inadvertently put water at the wrong time.............ie while hissing. She sounded like I may have gotten a bit in her chest on accident.
I placed her back in the tree upside down so if she needed to hiss something out it would be easier.
That really sucked and I hope I didnt compound the problem. Its tough when you are manualy hydrating them.
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